heavy bass presentation on 282

best_jerry posted:

Hi all, I just got two 2nd hand offers (SC or 300), in order to make bass lighter and tighter, please advise which option you would prefer?

1)282/SC/200

2)282/HCDR/300

You've got to love this place. It's clear what the problem is but you want to address it by buying more equipment. You have more money than sense my friend. Good luck !

Patu posted:

Sorry to hijack the thread with my question but how 202/250.2 (or DR) would work together? I have power hungry ATC's so this has been in my mind since 282 is slightly too expensive atm.

Hi Patu, the later ATCs (curved designs) are not particularly power hungry (benign impedance curve) although by design are fairly insensitive. I think ATC recommend at least a poweramp capable of around 40 watts.

The 250 will drive all rhe more recent ATC SCM speakers well.

However I don't think the 202 and 250 make great bed fellows. I ran an older pair of SCM 12 and an older pair of 19s on a 200 (using a 202 and then 282) rather well. It provided a tight, pacey agile sound very much improved with the 282, but without the authoritative depth and insight that the 250 brings.

Simon

james n posted:

best_jerry posted:

Hi all, I just got two 2nd hand offers (SC or 300), in order to make bass lighter and tighter, please advise which option you would prefer?

1)282/SC/200

2)282/HCDR/300

You've got to love this place. It's clear what the problem is but you want to address it by buying more equipment. You have more money than sense my friend. Good luck !

James, I agree. 

Jerry, I suspect until your resolve your room / speaker issues all bets are off as no electronics are going to be able to operate as intended.

It can be a kind of horrorshow looking on from the sidelines though, can't it. I mean, you've tried to help based on experience of similar gear in a similar room but it's clear the OP considers another path. It's the nature of social media I suppose.

C.

I've been following this thread with some bemusement, as indeed others of the same ilk from time to time, and it strikes me that all is based on the OP hearing/perceiving that there is 'too much bass', but with nothing definitive to go on. Questions that come to mind include is it jincreased bass extension? (and is that acrually excessive, or just unfamiliar?) is it increased upper bass? Is it some resonances being excited where not before? Or is it reduced control of the bass driver (though in this case latter seems unlikely without unchanged power amp).

i suggest getting a copy of REW (Room Equalisation Wizard) software, which is free, and  buying a suitable microphone, then running some tests in the room to find out what the bass is really doing before spending lots of money on amps or source components or changing the speakers to fix it. if that shows, for example, that room resonances Are the problem it would be better to play around with room layout if ther is any scope to do so, and/or treat the room.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Patu - My music room system seems to be similar to yours. For me adding an XPS to the nDAC was more about clarity and refinement. It did not really add any bass to it as such. 

Have a look at your room acouostics - if your bass is booming, that's the room resonance which needs to be addressed. If there is a lot of bass, but it is controlled - well - your sources are simply digging it up from the recordings

i think your logic or aquiring 250DR first is quite good. It will be a good stepping stone to 282. Minid you: 282 with 250 will require at least 1 HiCap to function, since the 250 dos not supply any power to pre-amp sections.

Adam

I tried XP5 XS and one aftermarket PSU for the nDAC. Aftermarket was better but both took the bass level too high. XPS DR I haven't tried, maybe some day.

The room acoustics are what they are. I have some acoustic panels behind the speakers and sofa (sofa is about one meter from back wall). It's difficult to do anything to the lower frequencies if you want to keep the space livable and good looking to the eye. Bass traps are huge in size and usually ugly to look at. Luckily the sweet spot sounds pretty good with the bass frequencies. 

I will try 250 but let's see if it's worth acquiring. And probably the older 250.2 first since there's a used one for sale here.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Patu posted:

Sorry to hijack the thread with my question but how 202/250.2 (or DR) would work together? I have power hungry ATC's so this has been in my mind since 282 is slightly too expensive atm.

Hi Patu, the later ATCs (curved designs) are not particularly power hungry (benign impedance curve) although by design are fairly insensitive. I think ATC recommend at least a poweramp capable of around 40 watts.

The 250 will drive all rhe more recent ATC SCM speakers well.

However I don't think the 202 and 250 make great bed fellows. I ran an older pair of SCM 12 and an older pair of 19s on a 200 (using a 202 and then 282) rather well. It provided a tight, pacey agile sound very much improved with the 282, but without the authoritative depth and insight that the 250 brings.

Simon

On the website, ATC recommends 70-250w for the SCM40 v2. 

Actually the 19's would probably fit better in my space but I do like the big and powerful sound of SCM40 and wouldn't want to move back to standmounts from floorstanders. The new SCM19 active model interests me a lot for this reason.

Interesting to hear that 200 performed well with your 19's. Though the smaller size probably makes them slightly easier to drive? Where I would maybe want slightly tighter grip is the lower bass departments and the bass driver. Otherwise I have zero complaints about the SN2 + HCDR driving the SCM40. I don't feel like the sound would lag behind or be out of control now but that last touch of grip would probably be there with 250 (and higher end) power amps. 

Patu, 

As an optiion in your experiment as part of your upgrade route to a 282-250, is to try a 282 with the SN2 in power amp mode.  

Logically, this would a better option, than SN2 and 250, as a 282 would be able to control a 250  better than  the pre of the SN2.

FWIW, my long demo of the SCM40 with a bare 282-200 (non DR) made me like the SCM40s a lot, especially their tuneful, well defined, and controlled bass and crystal clear mid range.

But the sheer force of the SCM40s output meant that it excited not just the room but that part of the house upstairs, at medium volume levels (8 to 8:45 on the volume dial). So it was,unfortunately, a non starter for me.  Not sure whether 250 would have changed this by allowing enough engagement at the same or lower volume levels.

Jude

There has been good feedback on here on the use of the SN2 pre with a 250dr.  This is probably the route I will take on my way to a 282 250dr - allows me to do it in bite size chunks

best_jerry posted:

Hook posted:

Jerry -

If you are working with a Naim dealer, then ask him to visit. There are several variables at work here, and having a second, experienced pair of ears can help you work through a process of elimination.

I have never heard a 202, but I do recall that upgrading from 282 to 252 resulted in a somewhat reduced, but much more controlled bass - clearer and easier to follow.

Good luck with figuring this out.

Hook

 

Hi Hook, it is not possible to ask my local dealer to audio because all my naim gears are pre loved which were bought in personal.

I think I need to try to split both speakers little bit, also take out the 202 and do the long time audition together with 282.

It is good that you have not sold the NAC202. In this sense, you can always "go back" to it if the NAC282 does not sound *better* in your system. Perhaps in your system and your room, the NAC202/NAP200 is a more matching amp than the NAC282/NAP200 in terms of bass output.

I see that you are considering more Naim amps (Supercap and NAP300) to match the NAC282. Personally I think it's not a good idea to throw more money to fix a problem, as the additional components may or may not be the solution. Try playing around with the speaker placement, shifting the speakers around the room in small increments, moving the speakers out from wall boundaries, closer to each other or further apart from each other. It appears that the new preamp has ruined the balance of the system in producing more (undesirable/uncontrolled) bass in your room.

A request. In the event you have found the right balance with the NAC282, do let me know in what other ways it is different from the NAC202.

You really need to see a dealer. Dealers are worth their weight in gold in my opinion. It's ok buying second hand privately if you know exactly what you want. 

Dear all, I have settled the case with buying a s/h 300 which under a very good price, the bass is tighter as well as the refinement is pretty good which allow me to increase higher volume comfortably, thank you for all your inputs!

best_jerry posted:

Dear all, I have settled the case with buying a s/h 300 which under a very good price, the bass is tighter as well as the refinement is pretty good which allow me to increase higher volume comfortably, thank you for all your inputs!

Good to hear. In summary:-

202/200 = no issues

282/200 = too much (uncontrolled) bass

282/300 = more controlled / less bass with better refinement when compared to previous setups

After listening to the 282/300 for several weeks, perhaps you can share your thoughts on the difference in sound between the 282/300 and the 202/200.

Cheers.

I was thinking about this thread last night as we listened to the Pretender by Jackson B (on vinyl) and then the Ragpickers by Mark K (on CD).  In both cases the bass was deep but not overblown, defined and fleet of foot.  

This doesn't help the OP but I'm puzzled because as good as the 202 is it's no match sonically for a 282.   I do agree though that I wouldn't expend more money yet without a Naim dealer having a good listen and experimenting more with speaker placement etc.

Regards,

Lindsay