Amplifier advice for Naim novice

I have a 272/250DR, with  XPSDR, and I'm intrigued to know why you feel that the streamer is the weak link. How can you tell, as it's just an integral part of the 272. I've also heard an NDX with 282, Hicap DR and 250DR and it's no better than the system I have. Adding the XPSDR would probably make it a bit better, but then it's become a lot more expensive. 

I was not entirely happy with the 272 as a streamer, and connecting the Linn Akurate as a source gave a presentation which I much preferred. So I'm now trying to identify what the best two-box amplifier combo might be while keeping my streaming options open. 

Well a 282/250DR (but you will also need a PS for the 282) will smash a 202/200 (which can operate with or without a PS) which in turn will happy slap a SN2. But that is stating the obvious (well to me anyway). So we need an idea of your budget to be able to offer you some appropriate alternatives to listen to.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that a 272/250DR/XPSDR would be equivalent to a NDX/282/HicapDR/250DR in SQ terms but I have owned the latter and have not heard the former, not in my home anyway. From what I have heard on here and in demos, I would say that the 272/250DR/XPSDR combo offers very good value for money albeit somewhat of a dead end as far as future streamer and preamp upgrades are concerned. But if you have no plans to upgrade further and want to keep the box count down then this might be your best option. Was the 250 you demoed with the 272 a DR version? I say this because the 250DR is a very different (and much better) beast to the 250.2. And has had already been mentioned the 272 is much better with the XPSDR powering it from what I understand on here.

Perhaps NDX + XPS + SN2 would do a trick? But no.... N272 + XPS + 250 DR would be better. The same number of boxes, similar money, better sound.

they key here is your speakers. With B&W 804, you would need to buy a 250 to drive those speakers. B&W likes current, and the 250 provides it.

Now about the 272, I have a 282, which some consider to be a slightly better preamp, but when I heard a 272, I liked it very much as a preamp, and also as a source. It just ticked all the boxes for me. I have a Chord Hugo as a source (which have similar voicing to what you have), but could easily enjoy and switch to 272 as my source and preamp. 

To my ears your DS streamer sound different from Naim streamers, and maybe it could take you a short while to get used to the Naim presentation, but in your shoes, I would buy a 272 and 250 DR and enjoy the music.

Also, I would sell the DS and add an XPS to the 272 later on.

Hi Adam

I can see the logic behind your question.

For the best two box Naim amp solution I would go for a used 282 and a new 200DR  as the 282 is way better than a 202 and it will benefit directly from the DR technology in the 200 which is only utilised for providing the power supply to the pre amp.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Perhaps NDX + XPS + SN2 would do a trick? But no.... N272 + XPS + 250 DR would be better. The same number of boxes, similar money, better sound.

I agree with what Adam says. 

I also agree with what Analogmusic is saying about driving your B&W 804s - I wouldn't be comfortable with anything less than a NAP250DR to drive these.  And as he also says, the addition of an XPSDR to the 272 will open windows upon your musical world.

So far as the Naim / Scottish company's streamers go, I was once a fully active Scottish company system user and I agree that their presentation is a whole lot different to my Naim system.  Which is better? ...this is a matter of what your ears/brain audio system has grown accustomed to, for my own part the streaming capability of my 272 is extremely competent, but extremely different to how my Scottish system sounded.  Your ears, your choice, but it may take a while before you become acclimatised to Naim's way of presenting your music, however, when you do, you'll be reluctant to go anywhere else, let alone back to Scotland 

Roger

I'd agree with most of the comments above. Before you write off the 272, I would urge you to try it with an XPS if your budget can stand it, as it really does transform its performance.

For much the same price as 272/XPS/250DR, I preferred the NDX/282/200DR, and I'm in the process of moving in that direction, but my speakers are easy to drive. If you intend to keep your B&Ws, the former setup might be the best option (unless you can squeeze in a Hicap.)

Other than the OP liked the 272 with other sources.. So yes an XPS will change/improve the 272 overall, it might however be the DAC performance/presentation of the 272 that is not what the OP is used too or is looking for. Therefore if he likes the Naim sound I would be inclined keep his source(s) and use a Naim preamp instead like the 282 if funds can stretch to it a 282HiCapDR/250 setup packs a mighty fine enjoyable very Naim like performance.. and will work with what ever sources you want.

Simon

ac16161 posted:

In terms of amplification the Naim combo destroys the Linn kit, but I feel the streamer element of the 272 is a weak link.

That's my impression too. Have you considered to keep the Linn streamer and add Naim amplification? That's what I'm using with an ADSM and NAP200s.

I really appreciate all the constructive comments. I started out in the hope that I would find a two-box solution but I have concluded the sound quality I am loooking for cannot be achieved that way. So I'm reconciled to  a 3-box or possibly 4 as my final outcome.  An XPS DR is an option so I may try to audition that with a 272/250 (my demo 250 is DR). But I am a little wary of going down the 272 path. If I'm more flexible with box count, how would a 202/HiCap DR compare to the pre-amp section of the 272? Or with flexibility re budget would the 282 really be the way to go? I should add that a phono unity gain/AV bypass connection is a must. 

All Naim pre-amps you've mentioned have AV bypass. 

202 in this combo - I'd give it a miss. 

I agree - I tested my 202/HCDR with 250 DR, and the 202 appears to have been voiced with the 200 in mind.

202/250 has too much bass.... it sounds unbalanced. So avoid....

I'm intrigued to understand why you think the streamer section of the 272 might be the weak link.  In as much that the 272 has a weak spot - I'm not sure it does as such (it will not sound the same as a NDX/282/HCDR/250 how could it?) - inclination tells me that it might be in the pre-stage.

In any event i'm afraid your only course of action is some auditioning. I would compare:

272/250

272/xps/250

NDX (or nDAC)/282HCDR/250

NDX (or nDAC)/XPS/282/HCDR/250.

Good luck.

Lindsay

Zipperheadbanjo posted:

If you like the Naim amplification, but weren't sold on the streamer in the 272, my feeling is that going to a Supernait 2 would be too much of a backwards step. Stick with the 250 DR which you really liked, look for a second hand 282 + hicap (or 3rd party hicap)... will leave money left over (relative to the cost of a new 250 DR + 272) to try out some various DAC/Streamer devices.

+1, the SN2 is a fantastic integrated, especially with the hicap, I have one and I love it but it is not as good as a 250dr with an appropriate pre.

I had an enjoyable afternoon comparing various combinations. First, added the XPS to the 272/250 - big step forward, more control, detail, presence, but still something about the vocals I did not like. We then squeezed even more out of the 272 with a 555 which improved things again but still that nagging concern there was something about the 272 I do not like. Then switched to an NDX system into a 282/250 (the NDX did not have a separate power supply), and for me the sound was in a different class. All reservations in terms of sound were immediately dispelled. So, I may go down this path and forget about box count. I had hoped that a 272/250 combo, possibly with an XPS, would turn out to be my dream system, and while it is great, I have a strong preference for the sound from the fully separate system. A nagging doubt is that any pre-amp that has an input labelled "tape" must surely be long in the tooth and in need of an update. In many respects the 282 design feels like something from a bygone era, but it does sound good.  I'm looking forward to joining the world of Naim in due course.

282 with a SuperCap is a very enjoyable beast

NDX with 

either (not less than) 202/NAPSC/200 or if possible stright to 282/hicap/ 250.2

I am continuing to ponder options, as I am struggling with the idea that buying a 282 makes sense in the long term. So I've not ruled out a power-supply/272/250 combo yet, with a view to phasing out the 272 if changes in the Naim product family come along. But I've noticed that in discussions of power supply upgrades for the 272, the combo that is always mentioned is XPS/272.  How about the XP5 XS - would that still be a significant improvement as well?

I would say like this - as the price of the PSU increases, so does their impact on the system.

My advice is to start with a bare N272/250DR. Get used to its sound for 6 months and then test various power supplies. Pick the one that you like the most. That does not automatically mean it will be the most expensive one....

Adam

I admit to being a tad confused. You listened to both the 272 and the NDX with 282/250 and said there was something you did not like about the 272 (vocals) and said you had a strong preference for separates amplifier. Now you are going back to the 272. Is it box count that is making you reconsider or something else? Are you really so concerned about the possibility of pre amp range being superseded?

Would be helpful to assess your priorities and think/listen again maybe.

ac16161 posted:

I had an enjoyable afternoon comparing various combinations. First, added the XPS to the 272/250 - big step forward, more control, detail, presence, but still something about the vocals I did not like. We then squeezed even more out of the 272 with a 555 which improved things again but still that nagging concern there was something about the 272 I do not like. Then switched to an NDX system into a 282/250 (the NDX did not have a separate power supply), and for me the sound was in a different class. All reservations in terms of sound were immediately dispelled. So, I may go down this path and forget about box count. I had hoped that a 272/250 combo, possibly with an XPS, would turn out to be my dream system, and while it is great, I have a strong preference for the sound from the fully separate system. A nagging doubt is that any pre-amp that has an input labelled "tape" must surely be long in the tooth and in need of an update. In many respects the 282 design feels like something from a bygone era, but it does sound good.  I'm looking forward to joining the world of Naim in due course.

Currently I do have 272/300 and 282/hicap dr/300 at home - source is a maxed out LP12 (with Adikt as cartridge).

Both combinations sounds totally different in my ears:

272/300
+ width soundstage, dark sounding vocals+ one box to have analog, UPNP, Internet Radio and the possibility of TV sound getting converted from digital to analog.
- flat sounding and less air

282/hicap dr/300
+ more air between instruments and deeper soundstage
+ have to add NDX for same connections (plus 1 box min.)
- shows the quality of vinyl = good vinyl sounds faboulous, bad vinyl sounds flatter and not as good as with 272

After 3 days with 272, I'm not really sure what to do - 1) stay with 272/300 and be happy or 2) add XPS DR (costs more than the 272 itself) or 3) stay with 282 and upgrade to supercap DR or 4) add NDX and stay with hicap DR on 282.

It will take more time to compaire both combinations as they always need to warmup and the cabling has to change all the time when switching...

I continue to dither because while the 282 sounds amazing, it is functionally pretty antiquated in terms of the control interface and ease of integration in a complex system in a way that is also family friendly. If there were a 282 in the Naim range that had a few modern touches in terms of the control interface I would go down the full-separates path in an instant. It's a shame as for someone like me who is looking to start a Naim system from scratch, I just assumed there would be a functionally modern dedicated pre-amp in the range, but at present that's not the case. I must be getting on, my wife can't believe I've started to think about convenience in hi-fi design after all these years.

 

Maragoo posted:

ac16161 posted:

I had an enjoyable afternoon comparing various combinations. First, added the XPS to the 272/250 - big step forward, more control, detail, presence, but still something about the vocals I did not like. We then squeezed even more out of the 272 with a 555 which improved things again but still that nagging concern there was something about the 272 I do not like. Then switched to an NDX system into a 282/250 (the NDX did not have a separate power supply), and for me the sound was in a different class. All reservations in terms of sound were immediately dispelled. So, I may go down this path and forget about box count. I had hoped that a 272/250 combo, possibly with an XPS, would turn out to be my dream system, and while it is great, I have a strong preference for the sound from the fully separate system. A nagging doubt is that any pre-amp that has an input labelled "tape" must surely be long in the tooth and in need of an update. In many respects the 282 design feels like something from a bygone era, but it does sound good.  I'm looking forward to joining the world of Naim in due course.

Currently I do have 272/300 and 282/hicap dr/300 at home - source is a maxed out LP12 (with Adikt as cartridge).

Both combinations sounds totally different in my ears:

272/300
+ width soundstage, dark sounding vocals+ one box to have analog, UPNP, Internet Radio and the possibility of TV sound getting converted from digital to analog.
- flat sounding and less air

282/hicap dr/300
+ more air between instruments and deeper soundstage
+ have to add NDX for same connections (plus 1 box min.)
- shows the quality of vinyl = good vinyl sounds faboulous, bad vinyl sounds flatter and not as good as with 272

After 3 days with 272, I'm not really sure what to do - 1) stay with 272/300 and be happy or 2) add XPS DR (costs more than the 272 itself) or 3) stay with 282 and upgrade to supercap DR or 4) add NDX and stay with hicap DR on 282.

It will take more time to compaire both combinations as they always need to warmup and the cabling has to change all the time when switching...

 

Maragoo, is your LP12 signal grounded?