Separates versus one box (Naim NAC-N 172 XS/NAP 155 XS versus Superuniti)

If they're both coming from your local dealer, then there's really only one thing to be done - try them out for yourself. The only way to be sure which you prefer is to demo them against one another.

What anyone else says is irrelevant in comparison with your own experience. Especially in this case, given that for some reason, some people give the 172 unduly short shrift, while others think it's great.

Thanks for the advice. I just demo'd then both. 

The separated seem to resolve more of the tones and have a deeper bass. Basically slightly more musical. 

Was also thinking value for money and upgradability might favour the separates as well. 

Dave's advice to demo them is right of course and I would add preferably at home on the speakers you are going to use.  I have seen your post that you prefer the separates.  I don't know whether you heard anything streamed to them both, but the DSP/DAC in the SuperUniti is a step ahead of the NAC N-172 XS, which might be something to think about.

best

David

I'd argue that the precise kind of DAC chip is less important than how the unit sounds as a whole - both the 172 and SU are a package of various bits designed to work optimally together. But  rather than a proper contest, all that really amounts to is underlining the importance of auditioning, at home where possible. Glad you were able to try it out for yourself, OP, I'm sure you'll be very happy with your choice.

I'd also argue, perhaps somewhat counterintuitively, that if upgrades will be on the cards, that there's not much to choose between SU and 172/155 purely in terms of upgrade path.

In both cases, the likely first upgrade is to at least a 200 and probably 250, and thence to a 272. The only choice that route excludes is a 272/155 combo, but although that may be a great combo, it's not typically the way people actually do things. If that's right, then I spose the 172/155 route works out cheaper in the long run.

That's leaving out dedicated preamps etc, but if going in that direction, the possibilities are endless.

There have been a few threads on this comparison might be worth doing a search as some of them are quite in depth

I've done this comparison, and it's a tricky one. They're very different in character, so listening really is a must.

I ended up getting neither actually and getting a 200 . . . . so, at the risk of subverting the question, the 172/200 is, to my ears, a real step up. There are a few of 200s around second hand at the moment, and the DR isn't as relevant with a 172, so why not buy your dealer's 172 and get a second hand 200? Then the 272, if you go that way eventually, will have an amp that can live with it?

Solid Air posted:

I've done this comparison, and it's a tricky one. They're very different in character, so listening really is a must.

I ended up getting neither actually and getting a 200 . . . . so, at the risk of subverting the question, the 172/200 is, to my ears, a real step up. There are a few of 200s around second hand at the moment, and the DR isn't as relevant with a 172, so why not buy your dealer's 172 and get a second hand 200? Then the 272, if you go that way eventually, will have an amp that can live with it?

That sounds like a good solution if upgrades are planned further down the line. 272 seems to be well received on here so could be the OP's final pre amp. Maybe a 250DR even further down the line. 

David Hendon posted:

Dave's advice to demo them is right of course and I would add preferably at home on the speakers you are going to use.  I have seen your post that you prefer the separates.  I don't know whether you heard anything streamed to them both, but the DSP/DAC in the SuperUniti is a step ahead of the NAC N-172 XS, which might be something to think about.

best

David

David, 

Where did you get the info about the DACs? The Naim site states that the 172 has the same DAC as NDX, and also that the superuniti 'has its digital hardware drawn from the NDX'.

This doesn't sound like there's any difference in the DAC chips themselves. 

I'm also thinking of my next step from Unitiqute, but will likely keep my Odyssey amp which is stunning for the price.

Having heard both 172 and superuniti I have to agree that the best way to choose would be home demo with the OP's own speakers.

Dylan

Technically, it says the DAC in the 172 'offers the same performance' as the NDX DAC, rather than saying it's the same chip. A bit slippery really, IMO.

TBH I think even to say same performance is a bit misleading - it'd hardly be fair to expect a box with multiple jobs to do one of those jobs as well as a dedicated box costing twice as much. But conversely, just because the cheaper box might not match the more expensive one, that doesn't mean it's not still great.

Good point Dave, and probably an important distinction. 'Offers the same performance' could mean any number of things but I do tend to trust Naim when they write something like that, although I haven't heard the NDX.

I like the 172 a lot, although I'm not in a hurry to upgrade my qute since I've been pleasantly surprised by how great it can be when partnered with an amp and speakers further up the price scale. That's why if I was the OP I would tend towards an amp upgrade first leaving flexibility for a source upgrade only if it gives bang for the buck in terms of musical enjoyment.

To drive my 4ohm Sonus Faber concerto speakers, maybe the power in the Supernait maybe better than the NAP155. 

Sorry I mean Superuniti not Supernait. 

DC71 posted:

David Hendon posted:

Dave's advice to demo them is right of course and I would add preferably at home on the speakers you are going to use.  I have seen your post that you prefer the separates.  I don't know whether you heard anything streamed to them both, but the DSP/DAC in the SuperUniti is a step ahead of the NAC N-172 XS, which might be something to think about.

best

David

David, 

Where did you get the info about the DACs? The Naim site states that the 172 has the same DAC as NDX, and also that the superuniti 'has its digital hardware drawn from the NDX'.

This doesn't sound like there's any difference in the DAC chips themselves. 

I'm also thinking of my next step from Unitiqute, but will likely keep my Odyssey amp which is stunning for the price.

Having heard both 172 and superuniti I have to agree that the best way to choose would be home demo with the OP's own speakers.

Dylan

Hi Dylan

i suspect it's the DSP which is different rather than the DAC. If you look at the applicability notes for firmware upgrade 4.3 for example (which is in the support part of Naim's website), this upgrade introduced DSD playback for ND5 XS, NDX, NDS, SuperUniti and NAC N272 but not for NAC N172 XS.

best

David

I have heard the Superuniti. It has a rather bold presentation which I do not really like. I have not heard that 172/155 but you need to listen to both to compare.

I'd add that in my experience, the differences in internal component quality has to be quite large to offset the audible gains from seperating out the components into dedicated boxes with their own power supplies and physical distance between RF generating components. Of cource that is easier said than done as we are not talking about apples to apples comparison here. an SU is not really a 172/155 in a single box.

All things being equal, my money is on seperates, but since they are not equal you need to listen.

The other two points to consider on top of sound quality are:

• Upgradability
• Desire to keep box count low

I had an SU for two years and it's very good, and a great fit and forget solution, though in hindsight it's not the most musically involving of Naim's boxes. I'd be inclined to go with the 172 and a nice used 200, which can be got for less than the cost of a 155. Come to think of it, if you could strike a deal with the shop, you could get a 272 and used 200 for virtually the same as the full price of a new SuperUniti. If either of those alternatives doesn't work for you, both of the original options would be fine, but you need to listen and decide.

Another strategy could be to get a new NAC-N 272 and used this as a dedicated streamer in my home cinema system (Pioneer VSX-LX55 receiver with Rotel RB-985 THX 100 watt 5 channel) while I wait to get a used NAP200DS or similar power amp.

I could also do the same with the superunit or the NAC-N 172, but I think the NAC272 is a superior DAC/preamp to the Superuniti or 172.

Thoughts on this upgrade plan?

As  understand it, the DR upgrades to the 200 only really involve the way it supplies power to preamps.  In the case of the 250DR and upwards, it changes the way the amp itself operates.  But with the 200DR, the amp itself is largely unchanged compared to the non-DR model.

So if buying second hand, you'd only need a (significantly cheaper) non-DR 200 to use with a 272, since the 272 has its own power supply and doesn't take power from the power amp.

And yes, while I haven't compared them myself (and naturally you should before buying if at all possible), a 272 with a 200 is likely to be significantly better than a 172 or SU with a 200.

Dave***t posted:

As  understand it, the DR upgrades to the 200 only really involve the way it supplies power to preamps.  In the case of the 250DR and upwards, it changes the way the amp itself operates.  But with the 200DR, the amp itself is largely unchanged compared to the non-DR model.

Yes, the main amplifier is completely unchanged between the old version and the NAP 200 DR: the only difference is in the power supply for a preamp. Conversely, Naim doesn't offer the DR upgrade for the 200, simply because it would require so great a change to the amp section: in fact, a complete new main circuitboard, as the DR power supply section sits in a cut-out on the edge of the board, which isn't present in the earlier, non-DR, NAP 200.

I was thinking about just buying the NAC-N-272 now and connecting to my AV receiver/poweramp.  I can then wait for a suitable NAP200 or 250 on the 2nd hand market.

Otherwise get the Superuniti now and be done with it.....

My dealer is recommending that I start with the 172/155 combo and upgrade over time.  Next step would be 272 with the 155 then swap out the 155 with the 200DS etc.....

Andrew Everard posted:

Dave***t posted:

As  understand it, the DR upgrades to the 200 only really involve the way it supplies power to preamps.  In the case of the 250DR and upwards, it changes the way the amp itself operates.  But with the 200DR, the amp itself is largely unchanged compared to the non-DR model.

Yes, the main amplifier is completely unchanged between the old version and the NAP 200 DR: the only difference is in the power supply for a preamp. Conversely, Naim doesn't offer the DR upgrade for the 200, simply because it would require so great a change to the amp section: in fact, a complete new main circuitboard, as the DR power supply section sits in a cut-out on the edge of the board, which isn't present in the earlier, non-DR, NAP 200.

Not entirely true. Board layout optimisations have been made ot the 200DR which, according to some users, has provided some sonic benefits over the non DR version even when not used to power a preamp.

Whether that means it is worth persuing a new 200DR vs. a second hand 200 (recapped if necessary) is another question. A 200, any 200, is a amazing piece of kit and it seems to be overshadowed by the 250 a bit when discussed. But we shouldn't forget that a 200 costs a lot less than a 250 and at its price point it is incredible and still what most people would consider a high end power amp.

scubafink posted:

My dealer is recommending that I start with the 172/155 combo and upgrade over time.  Next step would be 272 with the 155 then swap out the 155 with the 200DS etc.....

The thing with that route is that you will lose money on both the 172 and 155 when you come to trade up. If you ultimately want the 272 it makes sense to get it now. I'm not convinced of the idea of using it into the AV stuff, but that may be because I have no idea whether it's any good. 

As I suggested previously, using the 272 with a used power amp will give you a good system and minimise your losses. As well as a 200 for £900 or so, you could get a serviced 180 for under £500, or a 140 or 150 for under £400. Any of these options will stand you in good stead for a future amp upgrade. While the 200DR has detail improvements over the 200 the DR itself is pointless in the context of a 172 or 272. If you want better than a 200, the 250DR is the one to go for.

Out of interest, have you heard the systems playing music from a NAS? Even standard CD rips are miles better than Tidal, and this is the way you need to go to get anything like the full potential from your not inconsiderable investment.