New Xps dr or Expensive Hi-fi Rack?

Some Naim dealers do s/h Fraim don't they ?  Doesn't have to cost as much as you'd think.

It's not the Focals per se, more the priorities shown. A few people have said above that they are happy with their stuff on an MDF shelf etc., which is a terrible shame as they are severely limiting their system's ultimate performance. 

A well set up smaller system will often be far more satisfying than a load of more elevated boxes shoved together in a mishmash. Spending £1,500 or whatever on a rack might mean that much more expensive box upgrades are not required. 

Of course, when we first got our Sondeks, there was no such thing as a bespoke rack: I sat my first Naim system on breeze blocks filched from a building site. But we have learnedover the years that proper system support and setup is critical to performance. It seems that 'speakers first' and 'racks don't make a difference' are the new 'source first', and I think that's a mistake, and that people are missing out hearing what their systems can do.

As Misty in Roots sang, 'wise man build his house on rock, foolish man.... build his house on sand'. 

Yeti42, Feeling zen, Aussie steve, HH,

I live in a detached  Tutor Cottage,  so solid floors, wood floor boards on top, (no neighbour issues regarding volume), extremely good sonically, I have tried the rack without the castors, it doesn't make any difference to make up or character of sound. If it did they would have been removed.

Not convinced spending 3k or 4k ect on a rack will make the difference an xps would, the rack I have at present was an ex demo from a dealer, it came highly recommended. Had been used in his dem room with all naim gear sitting on it.

Each time I have heard the xpsdr the difference was quite significant, if I could be convinced about racks, I might well purchase both.

Nevertheless all comments appreciated.

wenger2015 posted:

Yeti42, Feeling zen, Aussie steve, HH,

I live in a detached  Tutor Cottage,

 

Clearly they did not teach you about system hierarchy. 

HH, for an ' old boy' you have a terrific sence of humour 

WENGER.        You could " hot rod" your current rack.   Get some granite shelves made up the same size as the glass ones and swap them in. Or get some thicker glass that's Fraim spec on top of wood/ MDF with ball and cups.  See if it makes some change for the better - doing some work on it your self might give an insight on foundation theory.

But remember the old adage - you cannot polish a turd. 

Some have tried.

TOBYJUG posted:

Some have tried.

Brilliant 

Hi Wenger

Based on the system that you describe and the photo of the installation, I would (from personal experience) suggest 4 areas where you might experience real, step change improvements in sound quality.

First, your turntable will be exposed to vibration feedback from your tremendously capable (and deep bass) speakers.

Second, your rack may not be providing the optimum physical isolation for your other electronics either.

Third, all your sensitive electronics are sitting above 220V electrical mains components such as power supply transformers.

Your CD source is somewhat outclassed by the electronics & speakers downstream of it.

So, a couple of suggestions:

If you have solid walls, then I would install a wall mounted turntable support.  If the walls are not solid, then I would check with your trusted dealer on the merits of this versus a better, isolating rack to support your TT.  Perhaps even a FRAIM shelf, balls & mounting cups.

Next, so long as you have space, I would split your electronics into a brain stack & a brawn stack.  I resisted this for several years being a bit skeptical, before trying it as an "act of faith". It worked.  Audibly.  Use your spare rack if you like to try it.  Just taking the P75 off the top of the CDX2  transformer & power supply capacitor bank will help.

Third, ask your dealer if you can try FRAIM, FRAIM lite, Hutter, Isoblue or the latest Quadraspire (as HH uses), as any of the above should help you.

Finally, try an XPS-DR or better still a 555PS (either DR or non-DR).  Adding the XPS to my then CDX2 was a jaw dropping revelation.  Transformational would be an accurate description, not an overstatement.  A 555PS is almost as big an improvement again (unbelievably!) at a somewhat higher cost.

So, what would I do?  The TT support first.  Second, split into brawn & brain stacks with your current racks.  Third, the CDX2 power supply.  Fourth, better racks.  Alternatively, you could use one new rack for the brain stack, keeping your current rack for the brawn as a good interim step which will also allow you the spread the cost of the new racks.

Hope this helps, FT 

I'm sorry but if you didn't find that castors vs. spikes made a difference then probably buying any rack at all is a waste of money for you.

The spikes are pirely there to decouple the components from vibration transmitted through the floor. If you don't think there is any then I won't spend time convincing you otherwise. After all, you have tested and found no difference for your environment. Regardless of how some of us may feel about that we have to respect the fact that those were your findings and your ears and it is your money.

But by the same token, I might think that adding the XPSdr would also not be noticeable to you given how much difference a decently decoupled rack is known to make for most of us.

Not trying to be cheeky at all. Just thinking that, with the new information you presented, you greatest enjoyment might simply come from spending the same budget on new music instead.

feeling_zen posted:

I'm sorry but if you didn't find that castors vs. spikes made a difference then probably buying any rack at all is a waste of money for you.

The spikes are pirely there to decouple the components from vibration transmitted through the floor. If you don't think there is any then I won't spend time convincing you otherwise. After all, you have tested and found no difference for your environment. Regardless of how some of us may feel about that we have to respect the fact that those were your findings and your ears and it is your money.

But by the same token, I might think that adding the XPSdr would also not be noticeable to you given how much difference a decently decoupled rack is known to make for most of us.

Not trying to be cheeky at all. Just thinking that, with the new information you presented, you greatest enjoyment might simply come from spending the same budget on new music instead.

I have heard the xpsdr demo a couple of times, their is no argument as far as I'm concerned, it makes a vast inprovement .

The Rack I have tried with castors and without and as said not noticed any audible difference, not tried with spikes though.....I had a dedicated power supply installed recently, yes their was an improvement but not night and day, probably because my supply was very good to start with, might be the same case here, the rack is actually reasonably ok....

Foot tapper posted:

Hi Wenger

Based on the system that you describe and the photo of the installation, I would (from personal experience) suggest 4 areas where you might experience real, step change improvements in sound quality.

First, your turntable will be exposed to vibration feedback from your tremendously capable (and deep bass) speakers.

Second, your rack may not be providing the optimum physical isolation for your other electronics either.

Third, all your sensitive electronics are sitting above 220V electrical mains components such as power supply transformers.

Your CD source is somewhat outclassed by the electronics & speakers downstream of it.

So, a couple of suggestions:

If you have solid walls, then I would install a wall mounted turntable support.  If the walls are not solid, then I would check with your trusted dealer on the merits of this versus a better, isolating rack to support your TT.  Perhaps even a FRAIM shelf, balls & mounting cups.

Next, so long as you have space, I would split your electronics into a brain stack & a brawn stack.  I resisted this for several years being a bit skeptical, before trying it as an "act of faith". It worked.  Audibly.  Use your spare rack if you like to try it.  Just taking the P75 off the top of the CDX2  transformer & power supply capacitor bank will help.

Third, ask your dealer if you can try FRAIM, FRAIM lite, Hutter, Isoblue or the latest Quadraspire (as HH uses), as any of the above should help you.

Finally, try an XPS-DR or better still a 555PS (either DR or non-DR).  Adding the XPS to my then CDX2 was a jaw dropping revelation.  Transformational would be an accurate description, not an overstatement.  A 555PS is almost as big an improvement again (unbelievably!) at a somewhat higher cost.

So, what would I do?  The TT support first.  Second, split into brawn & brain stacks with your current racks.  Third, the CDX2 power supply.  Fourth, better racks.  Alternatively, you could use one new rack for the brain stack, keeping your current rack for the brawn as a good interim step which will also allow you the spread the cost of the new racks.

Hope this helps, FT 

Interesting observations FT, will certainly give some thought to your suggestions 

Hungryhalibut posted:

But remember the old adage - you cannot polish a turd. 

 

HH, you seem to be very knowledgeable but your obvious biased opinion unfortunately detracts from the relevence of your comments....which is a great shame .....maybe you need a slice of ' humble pie' 

My bias comes solely from experience, which you are free to ignore. There - humble. 

A rack has almost no neaning at all if not on spikes. If you have the opportunity by all means try it. Spike shoes can be used for protecting wooden floors and further decoupling but 2p coins work in a pinch.

A good dealer would stand by a rack just like a bit of hifi and demo with and without.

But again I see no point telling someone they're wrong when they've already used their ears. You can't ask more of someone that that and if I don't agree, that's my problem not yours.

Whatever you decide, it will be the right decision.

Hungryhalibut posted:

My bias comes solely from experience, which you are free to ignore. There - humble. 

Obviously you're 'humble must be  work in progress' 

feeling_zen posted:

A rack has almost no neaning at all if not on spikes. If you have the opportunity by all means try it. Spike shoes can be used for protecting wooden floors and further decoupling but 2p coins work in a pinch.

A good dealer would stand by a rack just like a bit of hifi and demo with and without.

But again I see no point telling someone they're wrong when they've already used their ears. You can't ask more of someone that that and if I don't agree, that's my problem not yours.

Whatever you decide, it will be the right decision.

Will definitely try the rack on spikes, appreciate the suggestion.

Kate Mosse, the author, once gave me some advice, which I found very useful - 'don't do humble'.

The thing is, if you post pictures on the Forum, you are going to get comments, both positive and otherwise. My 'otherwise' comments may be a little terse, but are meant in a helpful way. I'm not going to say 'ooh, that rack looks great' if I feel it's severely hampering the return on your not inconsiderable investment. How would that be helpful? Of course, if you feel the comments lack merit, just ignore them.

feeling_zen posted:

I'm sorry but if you didn't find that castors vs. spikes made a difference then probably buying any rack at all is a waste of money for you.

The spikes are pirely there to decouple the components from vibration transmitted through the floor. If you don't think there is any then I won't spend time convincing you otherwise. After all, you have tested and found no difference for your environment. Regardless of how some of us may feel about that we have to respect the fact that those were your findings and your ears and it is your money.

But by the same token, I might think that adding the XPSdr would also not be noticeable to you given how much difference a decently decoupled rack is known to make for most of us.

Not trying to be cheeky at all. Just thinking that, with the new information you presented, you greatest enjoyment might simply come from spending the same budget on new music instead.

All which, translated into just one sentence, could be reassumed like this:

Since you can't hear properly, can't hear like us and don't think like us, don't waste your money on an XPS, which you won't likely be able to appreciate.

The phrase in orange is meant to convey the subliminal message that there's a you and a us, that the you is wrong and the us, by known facts, is right. Bottom line: given that you are deaf, get at least some consolation with good music. Nothing to say, a shining example of mental openness.. My doubt is: will the poor OP be able to recognise good music, or should he submit a list to the forum first?

Naimiac,  unfortunately I agree with you, it's just as well I can be comforted with the fact I can at least read despite being deaf as a door post ....

Wenger

I think I'm with Foot Tapper and HH re the rack.  I had something very similar to yours for many years (save for the castors). When I started to buy Naim my dealer advised it could be bettered and I took a gamble and got a Quadraspire Sunoko-Vent.  I was surprised at the difference it made.  The bass became more solid, necessitating some adjustment in the position of the speakers; a layer of hardness disappeared; and the sound seemed to relax somehow.  Further benefits along these lines followed when I eventually split the rack into 'brain' and 'brawn'.  

More recently l tried bronze spikes and close coupled bamboo SVT shelves at the top of each rack and I, and my dealer, was stunned at the performance improvement it delivered when supporting my 282 and SuperCap.  Another demonstration for me of the importance of good quality support for the equipment.  

I know space limitations often rule out a split rack (and my limitations rule out full-fat Fraim because they are too wide) and demos of racks are impracticable.  But on the other hand a good rack benefits every piece of equipment you put on it, and any future purchases.    

Maybe you dealer could rig up some sort of demo in-store to show you what difference a rack can make, and if you hear it maybe he'll let you try a rack at home on a trial basis.  The effort of a system re-build isn't trivial, I know, but the potential rewards might be worth it. And if it turns out that your current rack is fine, you will have resolved that nagging doubt.

Mike

MDS posted:

Wenger

I think I'm with Foot Tapper and HH re the rack.  I had something very similar to yours for many years (save for the castors). When I started to buy Naim my dealer advised it could be bettered and I took a gamble and got a Quadraspire Sunoko-Vent.  I was surprised at the difference it made.  The bass became more solid, necessitating some adjustment in the position of the speakers; a layer of hardness disappeared; and the sound seemed to relax somehow.  Further benefits along these lines followed when I eventually split the rack into 'brain' and 'brawn'.  

More recently l tried bronze spikes and close coupled bamboo SVT shelves at the top of each rack and I, and my dealer, was stunned at the performance improvement it delivered when supporting my 282 and SuperCap.  Another demonstration for me of the importance of good quality support for the equipment.  

I know space limitations often rule out a split rack (and my limitations rule out full-fat Fraim because they are too wide) and demos of racks are impracticable.  But on the other hand a good rack benefits every piece of equipment you put on it, and any future purchases.    

Maybe you dealer could rig up some sort of demo in-store to show you what difference a rack can make, and if you hear it maybe he'll let you try a rack at home on a trial basis.  The effort of a system re-build isn't trivial, I know, but the potential rewards might be worth it. And if it turns out that your current rack is fine, you will have resolved that nagging doubt.

Mike

 

I'm inclined to think that's a very good idea Mike, as you rightly say any nagging doubts would be resolved.

wenger2015 posted:

Naimiac,  unfortunately I agree with you, 

Wenger,

I'm glad you agree with me, although I am a little sorry that you seem to consider it misfortune...

;-)

N

Naimiac posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I'm sorry but if you didn't find that castors vs. spikes made a difference then probably buying any rack at all is a waste of money for you.

The spikes are pirely there to decouple the components from vibration transmitted through the floor. If you don't think there is any then I won't spend time convincing you otherwise. After all, you have tested and found no difference for your environment. Regardless of how some of us may feel about that we have to respect the fact that those were your findings and your ears and it is your money.

But by the same token, I might think that adding the XPSdr would also not be noticeable to you given how much difference a decently decoupled rack is known to make for most of us.

Not trying to be cheeky at all. Just thinking that, with the new information you presented, you greatest enjoyment might simply come from spending the same budget on new music instead.

All which, translated into just one sentence, could be reassumed like this:

Since you can't hear properly, can't hear like us and don't think like us, don't waste your money on an XPS, which you won't likely be able to appreciate.

The phrase in orange is meant to convey the subliminal message that there's a you and a us, that the you is wrong and the us, by known facts, is right. Bottom line: given that you are deaf, get at least some consolation with good music. Nothing to say, a shining example of mental openness.. My doubt is: will the poor OP be able to recognise good music, or should he submit a list to the forum first?

Namiac, please don't tell me what I said. I don't subliminal messages. I already said exactly what I meant without the need for translation.

I you want to deliver a certain message, please don't use another post to do it.