Which Naim streamer?

It's hard for me to provide some sort of "holy grail" advice.  I own a Qute2, and have heard the 172 and ND5 at various times but never sat and did A vs B vs C.  In general, most believe in (1) "source first" if you are in system building mode, and (2) in general, quality goes up as price goes up. 

I use my Qute2 as the heard of a second system (with a NAP 100), and if you are in system building mode and think that whatever you buy now is a stepping-stone, you could buy a Qute2 and repurpose it as a second system if you later want to move up the range and if you might want a second system.  Otherwise, I recommend buying the best you can afford.  Ex dem and second-hand provide GREAT value; do not hesitate.  Just be sure they are not so old that they don't have the latest hardware (eg, I'd not recommend buying a used NDX that does not have the mini-usb interface for updating). 

Bart posted:

It's hard for me to provide some sort of "holy grail" advice.  I own a Qute2, and have heard the 172 and ND5 at various times but never sat and did A vs B vs C.  In general, most believe in (1) "source first" if you are in system building mode, and (2) in general, quality goes up as price goes up. 

I use my Qute2 as the heard of a second system (with a NAP 100), and if you are in system building mode and think that whatever you buy now is a stepping-stone, you could buy a Qute2 and repurpose it as a second system if you later want to move up the range and if you might want a second system.  Otherwise, I recommend buying the best you can afford.  Ex dem and second-hand provide GREAT value; do not hesitate.  Just be sure they are not so old that they don't have the latest hardware (eg, I'd not recommend buying a used NDX that does not have the mini-usb interface for updating). 

 

+1....Wot he said!!

I think that's very logical and sound advice.  We don't really know where you aiming to be in the future, but when you mention adding in items later, I assume you expect to be building and adding/upgrading as time goes on.  If so, could you stretch to a secondhand NDX first?  This would cut out other potential source upgrades and most likely save money long term, then you could look at the amp later in the future?  I think concentrating on your source first and putting all you can into that now, makes sense; provided of course, you will be able to look at a new amp to complement that in the future.  I say this not having any knowledge of how your Nait 2 would perform with it, it may actually be an excellent match, but I suspect maybe moving to (something like) a supernait at a later date would reap real benefits.

Might take a little longer maybe, but would be worth the wait.  Just a thought anyway!  Whatever you choose, try and get a good listen first, never assume it will be to your liking...it's a funny old game.

Clearly you want remote control, so I'd go for 2. 1 has too much redundancy. 4 would be ok but the aimed-for SN2 is inappropriate with an ND5. 

I would go for option 3 (or 4 if you really must have a remote). In my view there is a lot to be gained from going down the streamer route, and I feel that the ND5 XS on its own is undeservedly dismissed by some people. It is actually pretty good.

Later on, if you add an SN2, then the ND5 XS can be easily upgraded relatively cheaply by purchasing a Hugo (or a 2nd hand nDac if you are that way inclined). You will then have the advantages of a streamer and a superb hi-end source that punches way above its weight in performance.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Clearly you want remote control, so I'd go for 2. 1 has too much redundancy. 4 would be ok but the aimed-for SN2 is inappropriate with an ND5. 

There is a lot to be said for buying a system with zero redundancy and as as the owner of a  172/200 combo I'm finding it a really sweet spot. Beyond cables there is a complete lack of upgrade potential and because  it sounds great to me already, it allows a blissful focus on music.

Yetizone posted:

Hi folks, as referenced in my recent dBpoweramp thread, I am now getting close to buying a Naim streamer, so comparing specs and analysing the various paths I could take. I still have my CB Nait 2, which can either be kept or used to help finance alternative boxes. The options under consideration include...

1. UnitiQute 2 (new) + NAP100/200 (2nd hand, added later).

2. NAC-N 172XS + NAP200 (2nd hand, both units).

3. ND5 XS (ex demo) + my current NAIT2. Downside, no remote volume control. 

4. ND5 XS (ex demo) + Nait5i (2nd hand) for the remote (a Surpernait2 added in time).

I think i’m leaning towards the ‘stepping stone’ potential of the 172/200, but being 2nd hand I am unable to demo the units. I have listened to the UQ2 at a local dealers and thought it rather good, esp with the power amp added.

But as always, any observations or advice on the Pros & Cons of each potential direction appreciated. The possibilities are it seems endless!

I would think #2 is going to be clearly the best... That would be a great system, the 200 is a super amp... I almost bought a 172XS and thought it was just a super unit, but ended up going 272 instead for additional inputs and the bump is SQ on the analog preamp side.

+1 for number 2 I Just got the 200DR today (with Focal 906) alongside my 172 and it is sooooo sweet. I am sitting here with a smile on my face as I work my way through old friends and hear so much more. I think that is a nice landing point - until budget/space mean I can go further.

Neither of the options, especially if you plan to go down the SN2 route. 

Start searching for a pre-loved NDX. 

Adam

I think starting out the 172 has a lot going for it... I heard one into a NAP 300 and Titan speakers, OK probably not a likely setup, but I was very impressed with what the 172 was doing, surprisingly so. If and when you ever want to expand in features or performance then it would make a great second system too.

Simon

Adam Zielinski posted:

Neither of the options, especially if you plan to go down the SN2 route. 

Start searching for a pre-loved NDX. 

Adam

+1, if the target is an SN2 why waste money on sources that don't really go with it.  A good used NDX can be had for decent money and come up fairly often

But option 2 is the best if ultimately the OP plans to go to a 272. The trouble is, we all seem to recommend what we have.... There are almost too many options these days; both NDX/Sn2 and 272/250 are great two box systems. But yes, by getting a 172/200 one is almost committing to a route to the latter. 

One "problem" inherent in the OP's questions is that we can't quite tell whether he is looking for some "strategy" to get something now with an aim for something better later, or not.  And whether he's thought about box count and would appreciate and prefer a simple system with fewer, rather than more, boxes.

He does allude to a SN2 eventuality.  But only in one option.

It maybe as simple as wanting to (a) add a streamer to what he has now, and also (b) recognize that over time he will want a better system and will be able to afford it.  (But several of his options conflict with (a)).  And given the wide array of choices Naim offer, it's no wonder that he has so many options!

Option 4 seems the least efficient.  2 new to him boxes, one of which (the amp) is a stop-gap, and other other of which (the ND5 will be underweight when he upgrades the amp.)

OP - can you get to a dealer and have a listen to 172 and 272, and NDX/SN2?  If not  . . . take a chance and get the 172/200. It will objectively be a "good" system, and not having listened to other possibilities you'll enjoy the freedom of not knowing what you might be missing. Which is NOT a bad thing  

I did compare NDX and ND5XS into my SN2. Two configurations were tested:

1. Bare streamer via HiLine to a SN2

2. Each streamer running in 'digital out' to nDac (HiLine to SN2). 

NDX won both tests for me, altough the winning margin was larger with the 1st option. 

What won the day? Just about evertyhing really - refinement, scale, amount of details.

Promptly ordered a NDX. 

Adam

PS For the same reason I changed my CD5XS to CDX2.2. 

Good analysis by Bart.

I would suggest that OP re-thinks the strategy and does some extensive testing.

DUPREE posted:

I don't know if it is committing to any kind of upgradeits. A 172/200 system is somethings one could easily be exceptionally happy with and have a great musical experience without wanting to pony up for the next most expensive box. It is a super setup.

Nothing to do with that actually - it's down to a system synergy and an optimal set up. 

When parting with any amount of money, one must really do a proper research. Unfortunately looking at the options the OP listed they appear not to be optimal, based on our own experience. That is why we chose to share our own experiences and suggestions. 

Adam

FWIW I started out with ND5XS, and a cheap NAS that turned out to be a mistake because it was noisy,  and ended up with Mac Mini running Audirvana through Gustard isolator and Hugo DAC, via a path that included adding XP5XS to the ND5, the eventual setup being at a cost barely more than the original bare ND5XS and noisy NAS but better SQ than the ND5XS+XP5XS combo as well as virtually silent.

Innocent Bystander posted:

FWIW I started out with ND5XS, and a cheap NAS that turned out to be a mistake because it was noisy,  and ended up with Mac Mini running Audirvana through Gustard isolator and Hugo DAC, via a path that included adding XP5XS to the ND5, the eventual setup being at a cost barely more than the original bare ND5XS and noisy NAS but better SQ than the ND5XS+XP5XS combo as well as virtually silent.

I followed a similar route to a very similar destination of Audirvana on a Mac Mini, USBregen and Jitterbug into Hugo.  I doubt I'd get better SQ for anywhere near the same money but I do think it is affected by maiin quallity and this is an area I will be looking to improve,

The NAC-N172 + NAP 200 would be a huge upgrade over your actual kit. The Nait 2 is really not able to cope with the dynamic range's assault of a modern source like the NDX, leaving the later vastly unexploited. That's what nailed it for mine, when I compared it with my nDAC and Nait XS. Also, I wouldn't bother with a SN2 when you'll have already a NAP-200. 

Bye.

I didn't say in my last post, I run Hugo direct into power amp, no longer needing a preamp, though I have kept it for other purposes (live music playing). This gives simplification of whole audio stream, and at least with my present amp and the one before it works very well, however, Naim don't encourage use of their power amps without preamps.

i just don't have a remote volume control, but then I never did, so don't miss it - though it is tempting to upgrade to Hugo TT which does have a remote, and balanced outputs. 

I would go for option 2

Thanks for the feedback everyone. As always, very generous of those who take the time to reply. Greatly appreciated. 

I don't have a long term definitive plan for this system as such, but I’d be happy to go as far as a two box system initially, but could venture to a four box set up in the long term as I have just enough space. No grand plan as it were.

One important factor being that this will be a first venture into streaming and if the experience is positive, the NAS / Mac based delivery of music will expand in time with the addition of multiple family Mu-so / QB's. The proposed plan anyway.

Adam, An NDX was not seriously considered over an ND5. Rightly or wrongly, I would have thought an NDX feeding my Nait2 would be out of balance and could almost be viewed be as a reverse mullet? I know 'source is king' as it were, but is this a step too far as per the observation by STOIK? If not, then an NDX is something to think about and I will investigate the costs involved. Perhaps an NDX into a Nait 5i? Interesting idea.

I have always liked the form factor of the Supernait and thought it would be an itch I’d like to scratch at some point, but the idea of the all in one Pre / Streamer is also a very interesting, esp with the new 272 which seems to be universally liked and in time, could be a logical replacement for the ‘intro’ 172. My only reservation being that there is a little potential for system redundancy once streaming tech moves on.

Lots to think about...

Also, apologies for the delay in replying and keeping on top of the thread - my youngest has come down with chicken pox!

Yetizone posted:

 

...

One important factor being that this will be a first venture into streaming and if the experience is positive, the NAS / Mac based delivery of music will expand in time with the addition of multiple family Mu-so / QB's. The proposed plan anyway.

Adam, An NDX was not seriously considered over an ND5. Rightly or wrongly, I would have thought an NDX feeding my Nait2 would be out of balance and could almost be viewed be as a reverse mullet? I know 'source is king' as it were, but is this a step too far as per the observation by STOIK? If not, then an NDX is something to think about and I will investigate the costs involved. Perhaps an NDX into a Nait 5i? Interesting idea.

...

Yes the s/h NDX into a Nait 2 or Nait 5i will be a monkfish (i.e. a reverse mullet), however you'll still get significant benefit from a really good source, you just won't get the full benefit.  Importantly, it won't sound worse than the ND5 XS.

You will get the full benefit when/if you upgrade to a SN2 (or a 282/200+), and you won't have to sell the ND5.

I used a CDS3 into a Nait 5i once, and it wasn't that much better than a CD5x. But the NDX/Nait 2 or 5i route to an NDX/SN2 is certainly very good, and doesn't involve losses along the way.