The Audiophile As a Social Construct...

TOBYJUG posted:

Also no mention of the " visualisation " of music when under the influence of LSD and other psycho stimilulants.

Ah yes, synaesthesia... tasting music and hearing colours. Along with watching the sun rise and set in a span of 5 minutes...

No mention in Musgrave's articles of the additional insight provided by such means. Which is sane, as it's already difficult enough to describe the experience of music when in an unaltered state.

Whilst freeing the mind, or altering senses, may have a positive creative aspect for the artists that create the music we listen to - and, whilst no expert, there does seem to me to be a (sometimes) positive connection, to we listeners the music itself surely is drug enough - who needs any other mind-altering stimuli when you can (and I assume by definition we all do, no matter how different out tastes) have good music filling your head! 

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Ah yes, synaesthesia... tasting music and hearing colours. Along with watching the sun rise and set in a span of 5 minutes...

No mention in Musgrave's articles of the additional insight provided by such means. Which is sane, as it's already difficult enough to describe the experience of music when in an unaltered state.

Not sure if it's quite synaesthesia or just a psychologically immersive state, but I'll try to take up your challenge with a specific example...

I recently acquired what I consider to be an exceptional recording of Beethoven's 7th*.  Now I find that an exceptionally difficult work to get "just right".  The balance and the changes between the rigidity of the (bio)mechanical elements and the fluidity of the spiritual elements, is both delicate and central to the music.  Listening to this recording, even when sitting still, both my physical 'body map' of myself and my perception of my capability of movement changes with the changing balance of the music (remapping my proprioception perhaps?).  At the same time, sight (and taste?) becomes dulled (but not otherwise distorted as far as I'm aware).  This is also completely different to the psychological effect of elation in the final resolution of the work.

Similar effects can also occur with other pieces, particularly the 'recession' of sight and taste to a dulled state, almost as though hearing has become my biologically dominant sense (is this how a cat perceives the world as they're a hearing dominant specie?).

*  SCO, Charles Mackerras, 2007, Hyperion (BBC), UPC 0034571143019

Better expression:  The music modulates my 'body map' of my physical being.  The feeling of the music, both spatial and vibrational, and my sense of my physical body merge and interact.

"Optimisation of playback equipment introduces a new and unwelcome focus for the listener’s attention, thereby detracting from the emotional impact of the music."

Only if you let it.  I've always been more about the music than the equipment, and that has become even more the case as I age. Like Solid Air above, if I came into a gazillion dollars I would probably have a system in the mid-upper level of the Naim hierarchy, but I would not have a Statement - I don't need it for me.  (This in no way disparages anyone who does have one.) 

Interestingly, regarding Jan-Erik's 2 acquaintances above, IMHO neither is really focused on the music. As I have regaled the forum before, I have seen too much of the people who listen to hi-fi when I worked in the audio shop, and someone who buys tons of music but never gets around to listening to it is really just engaging in a different form of "acquisition syndrome"; centered around music, but not about the music.

Huge posted:

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Ah yes, synaesthesia... tasting music and hearing colours. Along with watching the sun rise and set in a span of 5 minutes...

No mention in Musgrave's articles of the additional insight provided by such means. Which is sane, as it's already difficult enough to describe the experience of music when in an unaltered state.

Not sure if it's quite synaesthesia or just a psychologically immersive state, but I'll try to take up your challenge with a specific example...

I recently acquired what I consider to be an exceptional recording of Beethoven's 7th*.  Now I find that an exceptionally difficult work to get "just right".  The balance and the changes between the rigidity of the (bio)mechanical elements and the fluidity of the spiritual elements, is both delicate and central to the music.  Listening to this recording, even when sitting still, both my physical 'body map' of myself and my perception of my capability of movement changes with the changing balance of the music (remapping my proprioception perhaps?).  At the same time, sight (and taste?) becomes dulled (but not otherwise distorted as far as I'm aware).  This is also completely different to the psychological effect of elation in the final resolution of the work.

Similar effects can also occur with other pieces, particularly the 'recession' of sight and taste to a dulled state, almost as though hearing has become my biologically dominant sense (is this how a cat perceives the world as they're a hearing dominant specie?).

*  SCO, Charles Mackerras, 2007, Hyperion (BBC), UPC 0034571143019

Wow. I think I'll order that version of the 7th.

Although I've had some pretty weird experiences when really listening to music, I've never had my proprioception remapped, nor the sensation of other senses receding as hearing takes over. I want your speakers !

While these type of effects are mind opening, they tend to be individual. So I can't see how we can use them to recommend equipment A over equipment B, unless the effect is repeatable (does it work every time for you) and consistent across different individuals.

Just finished Musgrave's article on distorsion. More food for deep thought...

Music's power is more than just sensory: I have actually become younger, sometimes even becaoming a teenager again. I have been teleported to different places. I have met people I've long since lost touch with. All very definitely real (of course no mirrors in my listening room) - bur somehow I lose grip and slip back to today and my living room when the power of the music lets go.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Music's power is more than just sensory: I have actually become younger, sometimes even becaoming a teenager again. I have been teleported to different places. I have met people I've long since lost touch with. All very definitely real (of course no mirrors in my listening room) - bur somehow I lose grip and slip back to today and my living room when the power of the music lets go.

Brilliantly put !

enjoy...

ken

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Wow. I think I'll order that version of the 7th.

Although I've had some pretty weird experiences when really listening to music, I've never had my proprioception remapped, nor the sensation of other senses receding as hearing takes over. I want your speakers !

While these type of effects are mind opening, they tend to be individual. So I can't see how we can use them to recommend equipment A over equipment B, unless the effect is repeatable (does it work every time for you) and consistent across different individuals.

Just finished Musgrave's article on distorsion. More food for deep thought...

Oh deep thought... tell us the answer... (OK, it's 42, but you're still not going to like it).

I agree these things are very much a matter of the individual - it's not my speakers (29 year old Spendors), nor even my ears, but more related to the twisted mess in my skull that passes for a mind!  On the other hand, perhaps speakers age like fine wine.   No, it's useless for reviewing equipment and probably and equally unlikely to be useful in reviewing music.

The effect for me isn't consistent, it's dependant on both the music and my mood coinciding in the right way, but it can happen with quite a wide range of music*, so long as there's a strong sense of mood carried within it.

I've also read his article on distortion; I agree with many of the points he highlights, but i find his redefinition of the term 'distortion' most unhelpful.  I also feel that it's only in 'Distortion part 3' that he starts to say anything useful, and at the same time introduces the more useful subjective terms.  This is when he highlights the differences between scientific measuring instruments and the far more complex processing / modelling exercise that occurs in the human brain.  This at last is the crux of this part of his argument, and the part with which I most strongly agree.

*  It's happened with music as diverse as John Dowland, Beethoven, Berlioz and Hungry Lucy!

I don’t quite know if this is synaesthesia, but each key in the normal range from four flats to four sharps has a definitate colour for me. C major is bright golden shimmering light. D major is always a wonderful earthy brown, like new turned furrows. E flat major is a light olive green - brightly lit from above through spring lime leaves - comes to mind. G Major is a wonderful Papal Red! B flat is Royal Blue. B minor is very dark blue, not brightly lit, but as by candle light ...

I find that I can spot not just the modulation of key, by the new colour and easily recognise the relationship and harmonic shift in colour terms! Madness I know! A flat major is that light chalky blue that used to be on some Volvos, brightly lit, while D minor is surprisingly the same brown as D major, but as seem on a misty day. ... Sorry for my flight of nonsense here, but I explained this years ago to Alan Hacker [clarinetist] and he agreed even to the extent of finding the D major and minor as being that fertile earthy brown! 

No mind altering substances were involved.

ATB from George

PS: I find the relative minor of E flat major, being C minor is also the light green, but with big shadows of more or less midnight black. Three flats ...

There speaks a true musician, who listens to music - as opposed to what possibly may be the majority of who just listen to music.

Yes George, is you actually see the colours (rather than just associating them with the acoustic 'sense' of the keys), then that's one of the many forms of synaesthesia, and similar to the effects reported by my niece (who trained as an operatic soprano).

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

I don’t quite know if this is synaesthesia, but each key in the normal range from four flats to four sharps has a definitate colour for me. C major is bright golden shimmering light. D major is always a wonderful earthy brown, like new turned furrows. E flat major is a light olive green - brightly lit from above through spring lime leaves - comes to mind. G Major is a wonderful Papal Red! B flat is Royal Blue. B minor is very dark blue, not brightly lit, but as by candle light ...

I find that I can spot not just the modulation of key, by the new colour and easily recognise the relationship and harmonic shift in colour terms! Madness I know! A flat major is that light chalky blue that used to be on some Volvos, brightly lit, while D minor is surprisingly the same brown as D major, but as seem on a misty day. ... Sorry for my flight of nonsense here, but I explained this years ago to Alan Hacker [clarinetist] and he agreed even to the extent of finding the D major and minor as being that fertile earthy brown! 

No mind altering substances were involved.

ATB from George

PS: I find the relative minor of E flat major, being C minor is also the light green, but with big shadows of more or less midnight black. Three flats ...

 

 

Love it George... Being able to perceive one sense through another lens is a genuine gift.

Does it also work the other way round, where you see a colour and hear the corresponding key ?

Dear Jan,

In the mountains in Norway, up by Skurdalen I am often silent when I should be social, because music is pounding in my head. My dear Norwegian aunt understands this and gives me the space that helps. If I were able to, I would live there, and not need a gramophone at all. Every colour is visible in that peaceful place. Every musical tone crowds in, but perhaps, I would need to come away from it for a rest after a while? I cannot turn it off ...

Last autumn the Adagio from the Gran Partita by Mozart was an hourly accompaniment for a week in the wonderful Autumn browns of the falling birch leaves. Light brown is the key. Sunlight the catalyst.

Talking about Norway and the sound it brings to mind when I'm there. Listening now to a wonderful recording of Hoff Ensemble 'Quiet Winter Night'. It was recorded as a multi-channel by 2L - sounds excellent in 5.1.
It puts me somewhere north of Hammar, on the way to Lillehammer....

nigelb posted:

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

nigelb posted:

I'll be at the front of the queue when the medical world find a cure.

Not trying to be flippant, but this will do it :

Peace man!

Who needs a prescription?  Was in Denver all last week.  

Huge posted:

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Wow. I think I'll order that version of the 7th.

Although I've had some pretty weird experiences when really listening to music, I've never had my proprioception remapped, nor the sensation of other senses receding as hearing takes over. I want your speakers !

While these type of effects are mind opening, they tend to be individual. So I can't see how we can use them to recommend equipment A over equipment B, unless the effect is repeatable (does it work every time for you) and consistent across different individuals.

Just finished Musgrave's article on distorsion. More food for deep thought...

Oh deep thought... tell us the answer... (OK, it's 42, but you're still not going to like it).

I agree these things are very much a matter of the individual - it's not my speakers (29 year old Spendors), nor even my ears, but more related to the twisted mess in my skull that passes for a mind!  On the other hand, perhaps speakers age like fine wine.   No, it's useless for reviewing equipment and probably and equally unlikely to be useful in reviewing music.

I'm going to back off my earlier position and say I'm not so sure. I rather like Mr. Musgrave's conclusion that our audio obsession is driven by an artist's vision and thus it is the aesthetic we're after, i.e., building a work of art. I haven't read to the end of his ebook yet, but if he stops at the aesthetic, then he stops short. The aesthetic is only there to engender an emotion, a space, an altered perspective... the ultimate goals. 

So, on the contrary, reading that one can time travel with a piece of music, or expand time, experience an altered body image, or a heightened sense of hearing is, I think, a very useful indicator that the piece of equipment - or system - having produced said effect is highly worthy of investigation. Assuming that one aspires to these effects.

 

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

So, on the contrary, reading that one can time travel with a piece of music, or expand time, experience an altered body image, or a heightened sense of hearing is, I think, a very useful indicator that the piece of equipment - or system - having produced said effect is highly worthy of investigation. Assuming that one aspires to these effects.

 

Apologies. That should have read : « that the piece of equipment or system allowed the effect to come through unhindered ». The equipment, of course, is not producing the effect (tube amps and 2nd harmonic distorsion excepted), it is simply getting more and more out of the way... Less distorsion as Mr Musgrave puts it.

Jan,

My point about reviewing was intended to apply to reviewing for a wider audience.  Yes I use the presence of similar effects on myself when reviewing equipment for myself, but most of these effects are peculiar to me and I wouldn't presume that other people will react in the same way as I*.  Hence my previous comment about limitation for use in reviewing - I just wasn't precise enough in my use of language.

These are some of the pieces I use in reviewing equipment for myself.  Unlike the the effect where my body map extends to encompass the music (which requires the right initial mood as well), these effects are consistent (but they're not synaesthetic in nature).

John Taverner - The repentant Thief;  Part 9 changing to part 10:  I should physically 'jump' very strongly at the suddenness of the tutti and my heart rate should surge.

G F Handel - The Entry of the Queen of Sheba:  I have one recording that is exceptionally energetic.  Played on 'less good' equipment she shuffles in, sits down and mutters 'Hi'.  Played on 'good' equipment she sweeps in like a hurricane, slaps you round the face with a wet fish and asks "Right, now what are you going to do?".  This same piece also makes me aware of any resolution shortcomings as then the harpsichord will 'disappear'.

Ari Mason - The Curse:  On 'good' equipment I get a feeling of rising tension in all my muscles (generalised neuro-muscular tension), and I can feel the effects of the release of epinephrine.  The music generates this using syncopation produced by interacting rhythmic patterns, combined with quite a lot of 'uncomfortable' tonal transitions.  The effect is consistent, but delicate and easily lost, hence a good test.

I regard these musical characteristics as more important that any of the more specific aspects of the sound of the system (as opposed to the music), with the exception that is shouldn't sound 'wrong' with any of the music I play.

*  not many people have a C-B empathising score as low as 7, and hence I treat my reactions in this sort of context as atypical unless someone tells me otherwise - it's safer for everyone that way!

Hook posted:

nigelb posted:

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

nigelb posted:

I'll be at the front of the queue when the medical world find a cure.

Not trying to be flippant, but this will do it :

Peace man!

Who needs a prescription?  Was in Denver all last week.  

The tag "The Mile High City" has taken-on an alternative meaning.

Huge posted:

Jan,

My point about reviewing was intended to apply to reviewing for a wider audience.  Yes I use the presence of similar effects on myself when reviewing equipment for myself, but most of these effects are peculiar to me and I wouldn't presume that other people will react in the same way as I*.  Hence my previous comment about limitation for use in reviewing - I just wasn't precise enough in my use of language.

These are some of the pieces I use in reviewing equipment for myself.  Unlike the the effect where my body map extends to encompass the music (which requires the right initial mood as well), these effects are consistent (but they're not synaesthetic in nature).

John Taverner - The repentant Thief;  Part 9 changing to part 10:  I should physically 'jump' very strongly at the suddenness of the tutti and my heart rate should surge.

G F Handel - The Entry of the Queen of Sheba:  I have one recording that is exceptionally energetic.  Played on 'less good' equipment she shuffles in, sits down and mutters 'Hi'.  Played on 'good' equipment she sweeps in like a hurricane, slaps you round the face with a wet fish and asks "Right, now what are you going to do?".  This same piece also makes me aware of any resolution shortcomings as then the harpsichord will 'disappear'.

Ari Mason - The Curse:  On 'good' equipment I get a feeling of rising tension in all my muscles (generalised neuro-muscular tension), and I can feel the effects of the release of epinephrine.  The music generates this using syncopation produced by interacting rhythmic patterns, combined with quite a lot of 'uncomfortable' tonal transitions.  The effect is consistent, but delicate and easily lost, hence a good test.

I regard these musical characteristics as more important that any of the more specific aspects of the sound of the system (as opposed to the music), with the exception that is shouldn't sound 'wrong' with any of the music I play.

*  not many people have a C-B empathising score as low as 7, and hence I treat my reactions in this sort of context as atypical unless someone tells me otherwise - it's safer for everyone that way!

Can you send me some of what ever it is you're smoking?  

bluedog posted:

Can you send me some of what ever it is you're smoking?  

I don't need to send it, and you don't smoke it; you make it yourself, it's dopamine! (and the odd bit of epinephrine).

No smoking, vaping, dabbing or ingesting required. That's the thing with music, it involves more areas of the brain than any other sensory input and alone (without mental enhancements), is fully capable of producing these states. I often listen to Deuter during a yoga session and during one track, I had a strong impression of being lighter and almost lifting off the floor. I checked the track name : Escaping from Gravity.

Huge posted:

bluedog posted:

Can you send me some of what ever it is you're smoking?  

I don't need to send it, and you don't smoke it; you make it yourself, it's dopamine! (and the odd bit of epinephrine).

Not to mention the endocannabinoids.