252 harshness and burn-in

Simply because 252 is better than 282, no way to say the opposite.

We can translate your apparent harshness with trasparency e reality.

282 is less refined and detailed...another league if compared with 252.

FWIW my SN2 had some pretty dreadful moments in terms of harshness and lack of refinement on the run in. This was up and down until it seemed to settle down after about three weeks, after which it continued to improve for another few months. 

When I bought the 282 the performance was all over the place  for quite a few weeks.  The 250dr however was pretty good out of the box although there was a pretty obvious but nonetheless gradual improvement for a few weeks. 

Mayor West posted:

FWIW my SN2 had some pretty dreadful moments in terms of harshness and lack of refinement on the run in. This was up and down until it seemed to settle down after about three weeks, after which it continued to improve for another few months. 

Mine too, I thought I'd made a mistake at first because it sounded awful.  Only thing that has been worse running in was a TQ Black interconnect

Eagle - My 252 sounded much as you describe yours from new. I'd gone directly from a 202 and I was initially very disappointed because, although the detail was there in spades, the 252 was harsh and extremely fatiguing to listen to. Had I not had a very supportive dealer I might well have given up on it. I stuck with it and the 'burn in' lasted for quite a while (at least two months from memory) and then, bingo! - there was the smooth, detailed rather wonderful amp that I'd been assured it would be. I think it's a matter of faith in the early stages and, while that seems absurd at the time, it really is worth the wait.

May your burn in be speedy!

Tim

Thanks all. Fingers crossed on burn-in effect, then.

Naimark - the kind of transparent reality that, at the highest leading edges, sears into my ears and tries to claw out my brain is a bit too transparent for me! (Not quite poetic licence Simon But I did acknowledge how personal and subjective is the listening experience.

Tim - a relief to find you suffered exactly what I'm finding; and fatiguing - yes. I leave it playing radio music all day to try to accelerate the process. Patience, as I've said here before, is my achilles. I'll have to toughen-up when it comes to Naim boxes.

Ian

Update. The sound is definitely 'filling out' and leading edges are a little less harsh than previously. It's no way gone yet and I have no more moments of nirvana to report, but I feel like we're headed in the right direction. A contributory factor may be much attention to cable dressing. Shaking the Burndy out did make a bit of an instant difference and I've separated brains/brawn etc as best I can. However, there would still be much vexation if I posted a picture of the state of affairs behind my set up which relies on, err, multiple extension leads/blocks. So I've ordered a star-earthed/shielded 12-socket mains cable/extension block for wall fixing to take the plethora of 'stuff' in the vicinity in a way that minimises impact on the hifi. I've also ordered a separate, star-earthed/shielded hydra-style box and mains lead for the Naim boxes. (All Powerblack range from Sean at CHC.) Short of a new spur (aesthetically problematic for my place) this is the best I can do in terms of mains supply, cable organisation etc. I also ordered some chokes for the Cat 7 ethernet cables. It'll be interesting to see what impact it all has. It will, without doubt, tidy everything up. I'll update in 2 weeks, after it's arrived, if anyone would care to know.

I've read in some quarters that an upgraded source IC can also help with harshness at the top end - let alone more detail, transparency etc etc.. Since I've decided to stop with black boxes at this point, owing to lack of space with my arrangement, I've also decided to squeeze everything out of it that it has to offer. So my dealer is sending demo SL and Sarum SA interconnects this week. I'll feedback what I hear on the relevant thread - which has made fascinating reading Nigel & co!

Ian

My new 552 sounded incredible from the moment it was plugged in, however it continued to improve over a three month period. At 3 months i could swear it took another leap forward and then settled. I have not found this level of performance change before, or since. 

Thanks Gary. I'm sure it'll get better and better over the next weeks. 

eagle3333 posted:

Update. The sound is definitely 'filling out' and leading edges are a little less harsh than previously. It's no way gone yet and I have no more moments of nirvana to report, but I feel like we're headed in the right direction. A contributory factor may be much attention to cable dressing. Shaking the Burndy out did make a bit of an instant difference and I've separated brains/brawn etc as best I can. However, there would still be much vexation if I posted a picture of the state of affairs behind my set up which relies on, err, multiple extension leads/blocks. So I've ordered a star-earthed/shielded 12-socket mains cable/extension block for wall fixing to take the plethora of 'stuff' in the vicinity in a way that minimises impact on the hifi. I've also ordered a separate, star-earthed/shielded hydra-style box and mains lead for the Naim boxes. (All Powerblack range from Sean at CHC.) Short of a new spur (aesthetically problematic for my place) this is the best I can do in terms of mains supply, cable organisation etc. I also ordered some chokes for the Cat 7 ethernet cables. It'll be interesting to see what impact it all has. It will, without doubt, tidy everything up. I'll update in 2 weeks, after it's arrived, if anyone would care to know.

I've read in some quarters that an upgraded source IC can also help with harshness at the top end - let alone more detail, transparency etc etc.. Since I've decided to stop with black boxes at this point, owing to lack of space with my arrangement, I've also decided to squeeze everything out of it that it has to offer. So my dealer is sending demo SL and Sarum SA interconnects this week. I'll feedback what I hear on the relevant thread - which has made fascinating reading Nigel & co!

Ian

Glad to hear things are moving in the right direction with the 252 and you can get more 'mileage' by attending to cables (dressing and upgrades) and you are right to get the very best from the black boxes you currently own. Remember to physically and 'electrically' separate your network devices (server, router, switch, NAS) from your black boxes.

I would be very interested to hear how things develop with your system and how the 252's performance develops.

I am also am interested, especially when you replace the mains blocks.. It's hard to imagine the 252 sounding harsh, so I have a nagging doubt something is not right somewhere.. but hopefully your dealer can continue to advise.

Thanks Simon/Nigel. Yes, the plan is to complete the separation as you describe and to support it with shielded cables etc on the Naim side. I'll report back.   

I'm def with Simon on this - even out the box I can't imagine that the 252 would sound harsh - the very opposite in fact.  I think the dealer should come round for a good listen.

And if the OP wasn't experiencing the problem with the 282 it will not be interconnect related.

Thanks Strat - I don't think it's interconnect-related; but some have reported that various interconnects can, amongst other, more obvious things, take the edge off any harshness. I noticed this when I went from my old Linn speaker cable to SL. The soundstage open out a lot and harshness at the edges significantly reduced. That was with the 282. When asking one dealer with a used 252 about 'brightness' he told me that the 252's revealing nature is sometimes mistaken for brightness compared to 282's less bass-controlled sound. The dealer from whom I eventually bought this ex demo' machine has said it's just down to burn in.

To be clear, I'm using the word 'harshness' (and I am getting warmth and softness, too - more than originally) to describe high vocal notes that can still be painfully shrill - Florence and the Machine is best example - and sometimes higher notes on electric guitar, too. At just over 9 volume. P'raps I've got sensitive hearing. In any event, it's better than it was. I'd love the dealer to visit but he's 300 miles away. I found one I like when hunting a used SCDR and who is very helpful and patient, just not local! Is there another 252 owner in the Yeovil area?!! I spotted someone up the road in Taunton but I think he's (you're) on a 500 system..

Just out of curiosity what's everything sitting on? I know this won't explain the sudden improvement in performance you had but what you describe can sometimes be attributed to equipment support issues?

I've been in some fear of that question Geko as this is not quite a Fraim. But I have achieved separation with the Naim gear going right and everything else going left. The new power set-up will take it a stage further. Be kind..

hmm - don't seem to be able to upload a pic. 

No need to be in fear as I'm not in that conventional rack camp either. Tried loads of racks, including all the usual suspects. it's taken time but I have found a combination that I really like. Unusually for once it's not the most expensive.

What may be of interest is the way that I test them. I've found that with some racks you just want to keep turning up the volume and some you start to wince a bit a want to turn it down. I seem to be very sensative to certain frequencies and find that anything with glass has a rather uncomfortable 'sheen' that I particularly dislike.

It might be worthwhile removing any glass (if you are using some?) and just listen to what happens?

Well I can associate with the wincing, Geko. My support is predominantly wood. In fact it's all wood. 6' wide and 2' high with 6 shelves configured in 3 top/bottom pairs along its width. The t/t and tv sit on top. So it's absolutely not what most here would recommend - but it works very well aesthetically where any kind of dedicated rack wouldn't. And each box is physically separated from the other by an inch of RFI absorbing oak.

The glass thing is interesting. Because 10' in front of the unit/speakers is a glass table which I had turned solid side towards the hi fi. I wondered whether it might be affecting SQ so turned it sideways so that only the 15mm thin side edge of the table was facing the speakers. Either the base became more boomy or I imagined it. I'll move it around again and see what happens.

In any event, whilst a more dedicated support would probably be better I don't think it's the reason for the harsh leading edges. Like you say - doesn't account for the 'moment of clarity'. But could be wrong & much appreciate your observations though.

Nothing wrong with aesthetics! However, if it were me, I might be tempted to do a little bit of experimentation. I'd probably try to decouple some of the mass from your TV unit by making some little plinths for each peice of Naim kit. Nothing fancy or expensive and probably using 12mm or 15mm MDF cut to around 350mm x 450mm with some little wooden feet but not directly under where the Naim feet are. With a little bit of Matt black spray paint they can look suprisingly good. Maybe make a couple and start by placing them under your preamp and Supercap, as they are probably most sensative to the coupled mass. See where it goes from there? 

Thanks Geko - you've just described exactly what I've done bar the black paint! Which is a good idea I'll think about. Used 15mm MDF. So everything is de-coupled as you describe. 

I reckon you may have everything pretty much covered. The only other place I'd look is possibly mains? A worthwhile check is the mains earthing rod probably near your incoming supply. Replacing this with a new one if old (very cheap) and/or redoing the connection can often bring some good results? It's these sort of thing can often generate an unusual lift in performance especially when it raining and the ground is very wet. Was it raining when you had your little ureaka moment?  

eagle3333 posted:

Thanks Strat - I don't think it's interconnect-related; but some have reported that various interconnects can, amongst other, more obvious things, take the edge off any harshness. I noticed this when I went from my old Linn speaker cable to SL. The soundstage open out a lot and harshness at the edges significantly reduced. That was with the 282. When asking one dealer with a used 252 about 'brightness' he told me that the 252's revealing nature is sometimes mistaken for brightness compared to 282's less bass-controlled sound. The dealer from whom I eventually bought this ex demo' machine has said it's just down to burn in.

To be clear, I'm using the word 'harshness' (and I am getting warmth and softness, too - more than originally) to describe high vocal notes that can still be painfully shrill - Florence and the Machine is best example - and sometimes higher notes on electric guitar, too. At just over 9 volume. P'raps I've got sensitive hearing. In any event, it's better than it was. I'd love the dealer to visit but he's 300 miles away. I found one I like when hunting a used SCDR and who is very helpful and patient, just not local! Is there another 252 owner in the Yeovil area?!! I spotted someone up the road in Taunton but I think he's (you're) on a 500 system..

I'm not far from Yeovil and we have similar systems (WT Simplex/DV20x2/NAP250 etc.). I get my pre-loved (2007) 252 this weekend so I'll be anxiously settling it in for a while. Will monitor this thread. The 252 will be replacing a Dynavector L200 by the way.

No idea what an L200 sounds like, RTF, but I'm sure the 252 will sound great. What speakers are you using? My next instalment will be after installing the new power blocks/hydra block. But I've got SL and Sarum SA interconnects arriving today so may have something to say prior.. 

I have Neat Elite SE Eagle3333.  Brilliant speakers, punch well above their weight.  The L200 has a detailed 'musical' sound. Dealer told me I would have to go 282 with 2x hi-caps to compare, hence the 252 choice now I have opportunity. Looking forward to it.