252 harshness and burn-in

Good for you RTF. I'll be really interested to hear your reaction to the 252 after Dynavector which, from what I've read but not heard, may be slightly warmer and without (my) Naim's leading edges. Is this the 'musical' to which you refer, I wonder? Do let me know how it compares - especially with those upfront, higher frequency vocal and timbral elements.

Interesting result from a used AR Lunar IC over last couple days - quite a bit weightier but no less precise bass and a slight smoothing of those leading edges. The symbols in the intro' to Simple Minds 'Waterfront' are a great test for any system. They were crashy, painful-pitched & ill-defined with the standard IC but take form with the Lunar are more detailed/refined and less piercing. They sound like symbols not a car crash. Happier camper right now.  

Sorry to play devils advocate but.....are we saying that to make a £8K(?) pre-amp sound acceptable/not ear piercing we have to invest in a £1.5K inter-connect rather than the standard  wire provided by Naim? 

Sorry but my CDS3/XPS2(non DR)/282/HC(nonDR)/250DR with standard Naim wiring throughout does not present any of the traits talked of in this thread.

Absolutely not, Strat. I think it's under £300 new

This thought has occurred to me, too. I think I must have odd hearing. 

Actually I don't think my hearing's odd. P'raps just too sensitive to high edges. None of this was an issue pre ND5 & DR upgrades. I think it started when I upgraded HC to SCDR - my dealer asked for latter to be sent back for testing after I reported this stuff. (I wrote at length, here, about it.) He gave it the ok. Maybe it's only exacerbated by the 252's extra detail and clarity and not because of it. Ever since, I've been driven to try to upgrade it out of the system. I'll form a final conclusion after new power distribution and, maybe, IC. Right now I'm getting tired of bleating on about it.

RTF - great bit of the world; we spend a lot of weekend time around Burton Bradstock and W.Bay though sometimes get as far as Lyme. Once you're all tuned into your new 252, if you find yourself on the A303 feel free to dive in for tea and a listen. You can tell me if it's all in my head.

Very glad, Strat, to hear your experiences are entirely different.  

Ian

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Sorry to play devils advocate but.....are we saying that to make a £8K(?) pre-amp sound acceptable/not ear piercing we have to invest in a £1.5K inter-connect rather than the standard  wire provided by Naim? 

Not that I am aware of - all standard wiring here - although I am partial to my Hilines from my CDX2 and Hugo... The only ear piercing I get here is down at the tattoo parlour (apparently....)

S

Well what you get up to at the Parlour Simon...........

Actually I have a Hiline from my CDS3 as well - should have said. 

Thanks Ian, might just do that. Likewise you welcome to come to mine. I'm sure it's not in your head. I recall listening to a demo of a 252 and thinking how shrill it was, but dealer told me "it's just out of the box" so I disregarded it because had heard one when auditioning speakers and it was stunning.

Will send sitreps as it beds in.

Howard

This morning I decided to strip my system to a barer bones set up. I removed the TT IC and earth. Instant result. Bigger, smoother more open less etched. I went back and forth for an hour and it's definitely not my imagination. The IC doesn't seem to affect but the earth cable from TT definitely does. I switched NDX between chassis and floating to match each time. I think this might be the source of my problem. The first time I listened without earth cable was a eureka moment. Now the SL IC I'm trying doesn't push the edges further over the top. That's for the other thread. But it's just possible that I can soon tie this one up in terms of my issue. Please.

Meantime - new issue! How do I solve my TT earth requirement?!!

(TT earth was connected to 252 - connecting to phono amp resulted in hum. No hum connecting to 252.)

Very pleased you seem to have found the root cause of the problem. Also avoid unconnected ICs hanging from its rear of the 252 i.e. ICs connected only to the 252 at one end and nothing to the other.

Sorry i can't help with the TT earthing issue.

over the years, i have found earthing issues to make or break a Naim system, SQ-wise. so it seems the harshness you experienced probably had basolutely nothing to do with SL wires. usual issues of attribution in a hifi system!

seems you are on the right track. dunno about TT earth -- but i recall a dealer demo being ruined by similar issue.

enjoy

ken

Thanks Nigel, yes up to speed on that one. Looking forward to getting home later to listen to the 'new' 252! I knew it wasn't in my head and that, in addition to the harshness, it often sounded 'compressed'. The sound opened out like the sun coming out after disconnecting that earth. I'll start a new thread re: latter. Hopefully, one of the earth experts will be able to help.

Ian

Glad you've resolved the initial problem. I also am interested in the source signal being grounded point. I only ask as I was previously advised that Naim needs to be grounded at source. So what to do if the source component is not a Naim. How does one ground say a Hugo DAC?

If it helps, my WT Simplex is earthed to the P75 phono stage and not the preamp. No issues. 

Khan posted:

Glad you've resolved the initial problem. I also am interested in the source signal being grounded point. I only ask as I was previously advised that Naim needs to be grounded at source. So what to do if the source component is not a Naim. How does one ground say a Hugo DAC?

I don't have a Naim source, so I run a insulated wire from the earth post of my 282 directly into mains earth

there are instructions how to do this on the Chord website.

It works fine for me and saved me money buying a Naim source.

Indeed as Ken C says, all my unhappiness with my Naim systems have their origins with not understanding the earthing requirements. Once I did and sorted it out, my Naims sound like the demo units at dealers and I am much relived and musically happy.

Howard, thanks for that - and for the kind invite. Yes, I tried that originally when setting up the WTS but got a speaker hum. I'll check it out again tonight with NDX set to chassis. At least you can rest easy that you're unlikely to hear what I've been hearing for so long. Good to know you found a new 252 somewhat harsh, though. 

Damn it - Analog', caught-up in the fog I completely forgot to do as you suggested, back there.. You were right. Thank you. Belatedly!

Update: My earthing 'moment' seems to have regressed. Earth connected/disconnected effect is less obvious.  My g/f heard a difference - blind and with no prompting - but now I'm questioning ghosts in the brain. Anyhow, next week the new power block/hydra go in and then that's it. I'll separate that which must be separated and dress that which must be dressed. I'll have done all I can - apart from a separate spur & entirely changing the lounge in order to use a Fraim-type rack. Then I'll be patient over next couple months and hope things settle. 

Nigel - unfortunately, the dealer who has had the upgrade slug (all current boxes and SL spkr cable) is 300 miles away. So I'm reliant, mostly, on experienced & knowledgeable folks in here. From my descriptions, though, he suggested burn in and unplug the tt when listening to NDX. When those blocks arrive I'll be dismantling everything and separating it all, including your recommend on LAN stuff. I've got chokes for the LAN cables, too. 

Whilst on electrics, interesting thing I noted last night. Naim kit exclusively plugged into extension box in left side twin wall socket. Lamp plugged into right side. I unplugged lamp to change bulb and the unplugging resulted in a pop at the speaker. Anything to infer from this that needs action? Mike?

did you check that the equipment supply is earthed properly? of course you have to switch off the supply at the CU to check that the socket is wired securely -- i.e. all (NLE) are connected tightly.

enjoy

ken

eagle3333 posted:

Update: My earthing 'moment' seems to have regressed. Earth connected/disconnected effect is less obvious.  My g/f heard a difference - blind and with no prompting - but now I'm questioning ghosts in the brain. Anyhow, next week the new power block/hydra go in and then that's it. I'll separate that which must be separated and dress that which must be dressed. I'll have done all I can - apart from a separate spur & entirely changing the lounge in order to use a Fraim-type rack. Then I'll be patient over next couple months and hope things settle. 

 

Eagle3333,

Are you listening to the same music?  There are many recordings which sound harsh even on the very best equipment (such as yours).

Charlie

Glad to learn you've finally cured it, Eagle.  Harshness from a 252 just didn't compute.

Mike

I do remember one forum member having similar issues, which were ultimately solved by checking the earthing of his home, and he found that the clamp in the basement on which the earthing was connected to, was corroded.

Once the clamp was cleaned up, his harshness disappeared.

So you would need to call an electrician to check the earthing in your home.

Ken - thanks for that; Sean at CHC tells me the pop was perfectly normal so I'm less worried about that, now.

Charlie - it's a range of jazz, rock, classical and by no means all of it sounds as harsh as some. The worse culprits get worse with the more revealing SL interconnect. I'll review where I am in a couple of mths and meantime try to listen to a 252 in a similar set-up with my test tracks.

Thanks Analog' - that's definitely doable. 

(Final?) update. I fitted Sean's blocks Tuesday night. A 12-plug extension block for all the stuff with plugs and a 4 headed hydra for the Naim boxes. One head is a spare in case of a future box upgrade. All star-earthed, shielded and using mystery materials sourced from Area 51. Everything is carefully separated, isolated, dressed..  It's a model of organisation and follows the advice from the experienced folks here. And it's worked. First, obvious change is it's louder. I listened before mostly at 9 - that's now too loud. Next, the sound is smoother, more mellifluous, less digital; the harsher highs are considerably less so and better controlled.  And the nature of the sound feels huge, more powerful and room filling; there's more in the middle, so to speak. Bass is more powerful and extended, but no less controlled. I am, at last, really happy with my sound. It's big and smooth and beautifully detailed and I love it! All the components feel like they're working in the same direction. If there's more to come from burn-in, great. But if this is as good as it gets that's fine by me. Thanks everyone for the various support and help. I'd pretty much concluded I wasn't going to get the 'happy ending'. But I have. Thank gawd.

Meantime, I've been trialling SL and SA IC's and the verdict is now in on those on that thread. It's another nod for Sean's blocks or the re-orgabnisation of all the kit or a combination of the two. 

Hallelujah!

Shame it was such a faff but I am glad you got there in the end and the good folk of the forum were of help.

Now you can sit back and listen to music instead of listening to your equipment. Very rewarding.