Hypothetical scenario

Posted by: DelR on 21 April 2016

You have ripped all your CDs which are safely stored in the loft,and you have been very good and arranged for a backup to be stored off site.

Then you lose everything in a fire.

Now given the fact that you no longer have the originals CDs can you make use of the back-up?

 

 

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by Bert Schurink

Officially you would need to be able to proof that you bought the cd's, so you might be having difficulty in that case. But I would doubt they would specifically seek one individual out and one would need to have proof, to even be able to accuse you. So very unlikely.

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by Bart

"Can you . . . "  Do you mean legally?

Under the law of which jurisdiction?

And are you looking for a pure legal analysis, or do you want to inject some element of practicality (as in, (a) who would discover what you're doing, (b) would they care enough to do something,  and (c) what, if anything, would they do and seek from you / for you to do)?

There is a decent Wikipedia entry "Ripping" that outlines the laws of many major countries; I recommend reviewing it.

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by james n

 I'd not give a toss about using my backup in this instance. I'd have more pressing things to consider (as would most of us)

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by dayjay

I would imagine no, because you've got nothing to use them on and nowhere to put them, but once you did have a new house and some new hifi kit I would be using them regardless of the legalities of it.  The record companies have done pretty well out of me over the last forty years or so; I've bought most of my music several times in multiple formats from cassette to 24 bit download, I would for sure use my backup if I lost everything.

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by ChrisSU

Your house contents insurance should cover the lost CDs, so you can buy new ones to replace them. You won't even have to open those horrible plastic jewel cases, just stick them in the loft and restore from your backup.

Given that the record companies have already had their pound of flesh, and would be getting it again, the temptation to buy different CDs with the insurance money would be strong.

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by Bart

My practical answer is that I rip my cd's to my server, and back up the rips for a reason; I intend to use the backup if/when needed.  I have not kept all of my cd's; I do not anticipate needing to provide to any authority any "proof" that I purchased them.

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by Innocent Bystander

The burden of proof in the UK at least is on the prosecution - innocent until proven guilty - so the prosecution would need some demonstrable reason to believe the files were pirated. Receipts are useful to assist your defence, but not a legal necessity - the fact of a fire would be a very good argument as to why the originals don't exist, especially if your (presumably off-site) copies have saved dates prior to the date of the fire. 

(N.B. I am not a lawyer - seek definitive legal advice if you want certainty)

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by joerand

Really an odd hypothetical scenario unless you have been involved in or are planning a fire. In the latter case the question becomes deviant and counsel beyond the forum is warranted. 

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by DelR

Thanks for the responses, I was just wondering given the grey area of having rips of CDs without having/owning the original CDs.

Posted on: 21 April 2016 by Innocent Bystander

As in, maybe, a) throwing them away as garbage, b) giving them to other people without charge, c) selling them? Or as in obtaining copies from other people?

There is difference in morality between these,but I'm not sure re legality - any lawyers out there? And somewhere there must be a burden of proof before legal action can be successfully, but on whom?

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by andarkian

I have bought my CDs in a number of countries. Under whose jurisdiction would I be prosecuted if I used my legally purchased backup of foreign material? Ever wondered about the venality and greed of the former music industry before ripping came along?

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by Eloise

Of course this is all hypothetical ... but in the strict letter of the law (if you are talking about UK legislation) its currently illegal to even make a back up copy of your CDs.

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by Huge

Eloise is absolutely correct to the letter of the law.

However...

Should any organisation try to enforce this against an individual, particularly one who has lost all in a house fire, a good defence barrister would ask if if the claimant was prepared to sell new copies of all the works for the cost of replacing the media only.  No organisation could accept this suggestion as it would be a financial and organisational nightmare for them.  At this point the claimant looses all moral credibility and it becomes much less likely that a County Court judge would award damages to the claimant, as that would be contrary to natural justice.

Given this risk, it's unlikely that any organisation would risk pursuing such a case.

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by Eloise

Agree with Huge ... 

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by Innocent Bystander

Well, officer, last Nov 5th I tripped while carrying my entire CD collection down the garden path and they fell into the bonfire. No I didnt claim on insurance because I didnt want to lose my no-claims bonus and fortunately I had taken backups, and I'm happy to stream them instead. That's why I don't have the originals. Receipts? Seriously? Do you keep every receipt for everything you buy? Prosecute me? Learned Counsel Huge to the rescue!

 

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by Huge

IB, fortunately, it's not going to be a criminal prosecution (you're not counterfeiting), so the police won't care one iota.

Also I'm just 'your friend', not 'your learned friend'; those in the business will know the distinction (even though I'm not in that business)!

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by Innocent Bystander
Huge posted:

IB, fortunately, it's not going to be a criminal prosecution (you're not counterfeiting), so the police won't care one iota.

Also I'm just 'your friend', not 'your learned friend'; those in the business will know the distinction (even though I'm not in that business)!

And there's me thinking you'd been called to the bar given your earlier post! But point noted re not criminal prosecution - and the level of proof is then a matter of balance of probabilities, so how probable is the description of dropping into a fire, vs alleged obtaining of illicit copies...

Posted on: 22 April 2016 by Huge

Called to the bar?  It isn't Saturday night yet is it?    (sorry, cheap shot!)

Yes it is indeed the balance of probability.
However even with balance of probability, the claimant must still make a reasonable case before that balance is considered.  Without other evidence and where a defendant can provide credible character witnesses, that would still be 'challenging'.  There is jeopardy to both sides of this.