Supercap on 282

Charlie, give it a try, and I owned both at the same time, and I simply used what gave the most musical performance.. Wrote about it on the forum at the time, and I was not alone given open posts and private email feedback, especially with the HCDR. This proves the importance of listening and not getting wrapped up in labels and price. It's a shame because according to some private emails I receive, some forum members appear embarrassed to post findings where they think it goes against 'established' forum 'wisdom'. Hence why I always stress forget hierarchy and price and what others say especially when hyperbole are being touted .. Trust your ears with your system in your room. Certainly the HCDR on the 282 is a magical combo.. far more so than the nonDR...I wouldn't say it's a no brainier over the SCDR with the 282, but after extended listening (over several weeks), the HCDR was more musical/enjoyable with no fatigue .. which the SCDR tipped the 282 into slightly providing.... but as I say on less revealing speakers and or more 'domestic' optimised speakers the extra sparkle from the SCDR on the 282 might be a welcome tonic... and yes I was fortunate that I could simply swap one for the other to get the best performance for my system.

Simon

Simon, fair enough.  I don't doubt you, it just seems very surprising to me based on my experience.  Granted, I compared an olive Hicap, and two olive Hicaps to an olive Supercap.  The difference I heard had nothing to do with brightness or sparkle.  I heard the Supercap to be more revealing of the music in the recording, conveying it in a more convincing way, with far less artifacts and "noise."  I don't know why these differences of opinion occur - are there circumstances causing things to sound different (there are so many variables involved), or would we judge the same sound differently due to personal preference?  Would the DR versions result in these differences?   Whatever the reason, it certainly makes the point for auditioning and drawing ones own conclusions.

Happy listening,

Charlie 

Charlie, indeed.  I am not familiar with the older Olive amps or PSUs so can't personally comment, but it does appear with the older kit according to the forum  the old SC was possibly quite a performance boost over the old HC on the 282...  But yes with the classic series the differences, in my experience, between the DR and non DR on the NACs has been profound. 

Simon and Charlie, what are your sources and speakers?

Simon I know you use Hugo and CDX2, but at that time when you compared the HCDR to SCDR were they the same sources

your finding is a major relief to me financially, as the SCDR is not cheap, and then the temptation to go for 252....

No comparison for me, a SC2 on the 282 was the biggest jump in sound quality i have heard in amplification terms (apart from my 552). My then system was CDS3/XPS2/282/HC2/300, and the incusion of the SC2 was a revelation. I later tried a HCDR which was about 50% of the improvement of the SC2, and still no match.

I had previously, and latterly owned the 252, and found it much less interesting on both occasions.

gary yeowell posted:

No comparison for me, a SC2 on the 282 was the biggest jump in sound quality i have heard in amplification terms (apart from my 552). My then system was CDS3/XPS2/282/HC2/300, and the incusion of the SC2 was a revelation. I later tried a HCDR which was about 50% of the improvement of the SC2, and still no match.

I had previously, and latterly owned the 252, and found it much less interesting on both occasions.

Exactly my findings as well in a similar system. The SCDR is another big improvement that was immediately evident using SL2s so revealing enough and no " listener fatigue" at all. 

An equivalent power amp jump in performance in the classic series is 250.2 to 250.2DR.

Having owned a 252 and NAP 300 I'd say unequivocally that a 282/SC/250.2DR is as good as it gets until you move to 552/500.

Jonh

Exactly my findings as well in a similar system. The SCDR is another big improvement that was immediately evident using SL2s so revealing enough and no " listener fatigue" at all. 

An equivalent power amp jump in performance in the classic series is 250.2 to 250.2DR.

Having owned a 252 and NAP 300 I'd say unequivocally that a 282/SC/250.2DR is as good as it gets until you move to 552/500.

Sounds like an aficionados, to me!

For some one who just joined the Naim circuit in the fall of 2014, I guess I'm on the right track!

The only error, or slip, perhaps the HCDR!

But in all fairness, I was broke and needed a PS to activate my 282, @ 1.6K USD it was hard to pass up  a 2nd hand 2014 HCDR in the same year, I jumped on it!

Thanks John!

I think I got it, take the plunge on 2nd hand SCDR, serviced by Audio Plus in 2014 recapped and Dred.

A-B HCDR vs SCDR in my own listening environment!

Sell 2014 HCDR

Wait for 2nd hand SC and Snaxo 362 to hit the market!

First & Last Naim rig!

Out!

Allante93!

You might need to be patient on the 2nd hand 362 Allante. I've not seen too many of them popping up. Also, if it was configured for DBL's for instance it would really need to go back to Naim to be reconfigured for Isobariks. I'm probably just going to go for a new one. They're not the most expensive item and at least that way I know I'll have one correctly set up.

regards

Mark

analogmusic posted:

Simon and Charlie, what are your sources and speakers?

Simon I know you use Hugo and CDX2, but at that time when you compared the HCDR to SCDR were they the same sources

your finding is a major relief to me financially, as the SCDR is not cheap, and then the temptation to go for 252....

at the time I was using a Hugo, NAT05, NDAC and occasionally NDS.

The temptation is to go for the 252 with the SCDR - unequivocally better than the 282 in it various guises good though the 282 is. In my experience I think I can rest with the 252 - the 552 is better but not hugely so in terms of sheer musical enjoyment - some of the hyperbole on this forum does make me smile. Now the Statement has upset the apple cart - but I am not going there

Well Simon, the 552 for me is so much better than the 252 it's laughable. Live with one for a year and then go back. Hyperbole it ain't.

Marksnaim posted:

You might need to be patient on the 2nd hand 362 Allante. I've not seen too many of them popping up. Also, if it was configured for DBL's for instance it would really need to go back to Naim to be reconfigured for Isobariks. I'm probably just going to go for a new one. They're not the most expensive item and at least that way I know I'll have one correctly set up.

regards

Mark

I know, I missed out one about 5 months ago, if I would have bided 40 more pounds, I would have had my Snaxo 362! 

You might recall, gentlemen had a gorgeous set up 500's and NBL's I think!

 With shipping cost etc.. it would have set me back 1.4K USD, Brand new about 2K!

But as you say, the crossover pts would need to be reconfigured!

But my eye's are always peeled open for SC's & 362's!

KIT!

Allante93!

gary yeowell posted:

Well Simon, the 552 for me is so much better than the 252 it's laughable. Live with one for a year and then go back. Hyperbole it ain't.

Fair enough Gary - but I think we know our tastes are slightly different 

Taste aside Simon, i genuinely don't think one can make these decisions on hearing things at a dealers place using uncommon components, however many times it is. May i ask if you have done a direct comparison, where a 552 is substituted into a system that contained a 252? Even if that is not the best way to do it, a long term home demo is far better as you know.

No I agree, dealers are not always the best place to listen to hifi at least critically. No the 552 / 252 listening sessions have been with complete matched systems - which is my point about matching and synergy. I find the best way to appreciate a system is relaxed with a glass of wine or scotch in yours or somebody else's living room. 

Having said that I have heard both a 252/300 and 552/500 system sound both jaw dropping incredible in their own ways at a 'local' show, but yes I agree it is best to  savour the nuances of relative hifi performance  over a period of time...  rather than from a relatively quick snap judgement. But not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to do that..

S

I'm totally with you Gary. The biggest Hifi improvement I have ever heard was when I slotted a 552 into my then CDS3, XPS2, 300, SL2 system, in place of the 252 and Supercap. It's in a different league, full of life and music, which the 252 certainly wasn't. 

I have also heard many systems where together they work as a whole. I have however never heard a system that wasn't dramatically improved in every way by introducing a 552. Having owned for long periods of time a 202/282/252/552, i can say with some confidence on a personal level that the 552 is much further from a 252 than the 252 is from a 202.

Allante93 posted:

Jonh

Exactly my findings as well in a similar system. The SCDR is another big improvement that was immediately evident using SL2s so revealing enough and no " listener fatigue" at all. 

An equivalent power amp jump in performance in the classic series is 250.2 to 250.2DR.

Having owned a 252 and NAP 300 I'd say unequivocally that a 282/SC/250.2DR is as good as it gets until you move to 552/500.

Sounds like an aficionados, to me!

For some one who just joined the Naim circuit in the fall of 2014, I guess I'm on the right track!

The only error, or slip, perhaps the HCDR!

But in all fairness, I was broke and needed a PS to activate my 282, @ 1.6K USD it was hard to pass up  a 2nd hand 2014 HCDR in the same year, I jumped on it!

Thanks John!

I think I got it, take the plunge on 2nd hand SCDR, serviced by Audio Plus in 2014 recapped and Dred.

A-B HCDR vs SCDR in my own listening environment!

Sell 2014 HCDR

Wait for 2nd hand SC and Snaxo 362 to hit the market!

First & Last Naim rig!

Out!

Allante93!

 

 

In your rush to add more and more boxes, you are overlooking the fact that your source is becoming woefully inadequate. I'd suggest you get a CDS3 and XPSDR, and then a better preamp, before thinking about active. The old advice was to get the very best passive system you can, before thinking of active, and it's still good advice today. 

Gary - with as much  confidence - I can say that your comparison  is not something  I recognise at all - but am glad you enjoy your system,  but yes,  let us allow people make their own minds up ... all my posts say is there is no absolutes - its about personal preference and relative differences. I have no axe to grind either way... and I try and be honest, not exaggerate, self justify or use hyperbole - I am not perfect as I  do from time to time - but there we go.

We are not talking diminishing returns Simon. I never said anything about value for money. I am talking absolute performance comparisons here. It is so easy to say something is not much better when you think about price, but again i never mentioed that, you did. I also happen to think it's a crazy amount of money, i don't own it any more and likely never will. However i would never make the assumption it is marginally better than the rest without having spent real time with it so i can be honest with myself and others.

Don't worry about others on here, i'm sure they are grown up enough to make their own informed decisions. You don't need to 'save' anyone.

ps my diminishing returns reference was to your original reply, which you seem to have edited.

gary yeowell posted:

We are not talking diminishing returns Simon. I never said anything about value for money. I am talking absolute performance comparisons here. It is so easy to say something is not much better when you think about price, but again i never mentioed that, you did. I also happen to think it's a crazy amount of money, i don't own it any more and likely never will. However i would never make the assumption it is marginally better than the rest without having spent real time with it so i can be honest with myself and others.

Don't worry about others on here, i'm sure they are grown up enough to make their own informed decisions. You don't need to 'save' anyone.

ps my diminishing returns reference was to your original reply, which you seem to have edited.

Gary - who said anything about value for money, cost and prices and saving people...  price didn't even cross my mind until you mentioned it .. quite insightful.. 

Anyway off to enjoy some music now - enjoy the BH weekend - the sun is due out...

Yes I edited my reply as I subsequently noted your comparison was purely your own personal observation .. and I missed that point..

If I may add, I think it depends which context the system is paired with.

I think Gary may have used Naim speakers when he has tried all the Naim preamps, I think the same applies to HH, whereas using differnent speakers than Naim may change the result.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but both Gary and HH had a CDS3/XPS2 when you both owned you 552?

Simon also uses a Hugo which personally I love and use myself. It is a different sound to the Naim sound, but that could explain that from what you heard, you are all right.

Different source, different preamp, different speakers, and hence different experiences, and opinions?

Actually Simon, your original reply mentioned value for money, and also mentioned that my hyperbole misleads other people which you don't do..

Analoguemusic, no i was not using Naim speakers at that time. To your second question, I owned a CDX2/555PS and CDS3/XPS2  and a fully fledged LP12 at the time of 552/300. I had previously used a CD555 also. Regardless of sourse (as long as it is good) the 552 Is different to the others by a margin.

Analogmusic - thanks for your common sense - yes of course its about synergy including speakers - and yes the 552 is a more capable pre than the 252, just like the 252 is more capable than 282 - but just because its more capable it  doesn't mean it provides significantly more musical enjoyment  (just like we see with some members between 282 and 252). But stating this principle with the 552   seems to invoke some strange blasphemous reaction from a few...which I find bizarre and midly amusing.

What i find amusing Simon is that you pass judgement on equipment you have never owned. Like i said, try a 552 for a few weeks and come back to us....  I would say you like to defend your 252 choice, which in itself, could be reasoned as hyperbole.