Supercap on 282

Gary - no my 252 is rubbish - I can't understand anyone wanting one - Seriously if I really liked the 552 that much when I have listened to them over numerous private and public sessions  I would have bought a nice used DR model that was at my/our? local emporium not too long ago... instead I put the money I had for that potential purchase into premium bonds.....you never know I might be able to purchase a Statement instead   

Until you have tried one, i can't see how you can state to others that it's better but not by much.....  is all.

For me, going to the 552 really did provide more musical enjoyment: it's just massively engaging. But that's not to say that I miss it, which I don't. I'm perfectly happy with my little 272, and I find my 272/250DR much more engaging than the 252/250.2 I owned in the past. Anyway, I'm not helping, so I'll shut up. 

well it hasn't been in the systems I have listened to .. so surely I can share my personal observations?

but if you are saying I can only judge after having listened to it in my own listening room and system for several weeks - i can see where you are coming from  - but if the difference was as extreme as is being said by some then surely it would be more instantly apparent where ever I hear it ... but I think this is where we came in..

I suspect we are not going to agree on this.. 

The point is Simon, how can you make a judgement on it by hearing it in different systems in different places with different front and back ends over a period. Either sit down and put it in your own system where things are constant, or at least arrange a demonstration where the only variable is the two pre amps.

HH, i can only agree that i also don't miss it, or any other bit of hifi actually. One can very easily acclimatise to something 'lesser' and still enjoy it of course. I have done this for the last 5 years without any problem. I will however remember with great excitement the time spent with the 552.

I have heard 552/500 numerous times, and it is special in the sense that it truly sounds like "live music" with the right source and of course speakers.

It is worth nothing that the 552 has features that do set it apart from the Naim preamps below it.

1) the floating circuit boards

2) the split rail power supply, which eliminates virtually all noise in signal earth.

3) the power supply has more current than supercap. The supercap maybe be slightly more powerful than a Hicap, but with more regulators, whereas the 552PS has a 800 VA transformer (!), and 3 massive smoothing capacitors.

All this from the Nait to the 552 is to reduce the ripple present when AC is coverted to DC, and in simple terms to reduce the noise floor.

While the 252 may have been the best preamp that Naim made (since it is derived from the 52), the 552 takes all that to another league.

But still, it is to lower the noise floor, and extract more music. The 552, however, can not extract more than was provided to it by the source.

Personally after hearing most of the range I don't hear that any Naim preamp boogies that much more more than another one, they all have the boogie factor in common.

I guess that is why HH and Gary can still enjoy music on their Naim amps after owning the 552?

Hungryhalibut posted:

For me, going to the 552 really did provide more musical enjoyment: it's just massively engaging. But that's not to say that I miss it, which I don't. I'm perfectly happy with my little 272, and I find my 272/250DR much more engaging than the 252/250.2 I owned in the past. Anyway, I'm not helping, so I'll shut up. 

HH - no I think you make a good point. The enjoyment of a system happens at many different levels - and we can enjoy a system at many different levels of technical specification.

I really enjoyed the NaitXS - but that is quite technically inferior to many of the systems mentioned here, excluding the 252 of course, and that was wonderfully enjoyable to listen to most types of music on.... only perhaps ultimately let down by the fact it wasn't the best match for my then speakers.

Simon

Simon, I sometimes think you are a bit of an "outlier" in terms of you reports of sound preferences. This is not meant as a criticism.  I value your intellectual honesty.  Diversity of opinion is valuable and, I think, inevitable in a subject such as this - there are so many technical variables on top of the perceptual ones.  

I agree that "judgmental" responses are not so helpful, but I did not think Simon was doing that.  The one thing I feel I can say with certainty is that I heard something or that I preferred one thing over another. I hope that I am more cautious about stating absolutes about equipment. I think many forum members report their experiences in this way.   As Simon says, we can all then distill our own conclusions, however uncertain, from reading diverse reports. 

Cheers,

Charlie

Yes agree on that Simon. For me the NaitXS is a very special bit of kit that can really communicate the musical message in a wonderfully engaging way, albeit bandwidth limited compared to say the 552. What it does it does so well, i can forgive the rest, so long as the speakers don't destroy it. In terms of the Naim lineup, i could quite easily make two purchases with nothing in between, the original XS and a 552.

The xs has a floating circuit board not anywhere as good as the 552 .... I love the original nait xs wish I never parted with it

I think that before you can pass judgement about any piece of kit you need to have tried it in your own system for a week or more if already burned in or longer if brand new. I had a 252 for a couple of months before getting a 552, so was able to do a lengthy comparison. I kept my 282 and use it in a second system so again I've been able to make direct comparisons with and without a SC.

Same with the Chord Hugo, I tried it at home for a couple of weeks before passing judgement (not impressed) but at least I'd tried it to see if the hyperbole was justified.

There is an understandable tendency to "big up" ones current kit but to use the well worn cliche let your own ears decide.

LarsDK posted:

Agree - for me, scdr was amazing on the 282 with very clear improvement over hcdr. Just to my ears, it was a no brainer, but we have different results of course, Lars

+1. No contest to my ears either.  Supercap puts the 282 in a different league, bringing much more scale, authority and yes...more musical for me too.

Both of you gentlemen have valid points, and both of  you are highly respected by the Forum.

This is what I love about the Forum, input from gents like yourself, allow less knowledgeable individuals to make better decisions.

In my case, take the plunge and A-B both units in my own environment. If the HCDR is to my liking, great, I will still need the SCDR for the Snaxo. If the SCDR is suitable, list the 2014 HCDR

.Hence, a win win situation!

Thanks to both of you gents!

Wow! Busy post! ( John & Simon )

Allante93!

All opinions here are good. 

For all the Hugo praise, for all the SCDR praise, and 552 praise, I am playing AC/DC live (Shoot to thrill, what a guitar solo, and interaction with drums, awesome !!!) on my humble 202/200/DAC V1 and Dynaudio X16, and having a blast (my wife and daughter are out so I can crank it up all the way), and the guitars are roaring out of the speakers, I feel like I am in the concert. Simply AWESOME ! This what I bought Naim for. 

This thread seems to have drifted off (or more precisely, upwards) to the 552.  I'm only had my 552 two weeks so it's barely warmed up let alone run in, but it's clear to me that it is a significantly more capable pre-amp than the 282 and 252.  But if I didn't have it I could live very happily with a 282/SCDR.  I can now better appreciate what I wasn't getting from the 282/SCDR and what it seemed to be adding, but I thoroughly enjoyed my ownership and I know that if I ever went back to it I'd continue to enjoy it. I think that's what matters at the end of the day: enjoyment. 

I find some comments here very interesting.

My experience – 6 years back, when still very new to Naim, using secondhand  CDX2/282/HiCap2/250.2/Allaes I came across an olive supercap (dealer) at a price I was prepared to take a punt on.  A very pleasing result – immediately more of everything (clarity, air, insight, life) – it all sounded more ‘right’ and not just via the CDX2. It was not (to me at least) a night and day difference, but if I’d been hearing that immediate effect at a demo, then from that point on, I’d have known that I definitely wanted a supercap for my 282. Roll forward to the DR power supply upgrades - demoing Supercap DR and XPS2DR, using my classical/jazz/folk tracks, I couldn’t discern much difference between my olive supercap when it was swapped out. Sure, there was a difference, and the dealer helpfully spotlighted it for me using a section of a pop/rock track. However, my main motive for part exchanging my power supplies for the new DRs was to get new units with the 5 year warranties.

Back home with the new Supercap DR, expecting little difference in the sound, I thought, though I wasn’t absolutely certain (how quickly does the memory of what we hear fade/play tricks I ask myself), that the DR sound was leaner than with the olive supercap. I started to ask myself whether the system did now sound different, and, whether I preferred what I was used to. However, taking the bigger picture, the sound was still fine, any differences small, and if in fact it was a different sound, then I soon became accustomed to it (or maybe the supercapDR  ‘ran in’ over time).

After a while with the supercap DR, the thought that I was using only 4 power rails of this Naim ‘state of the art’ new unit played on my mind enough to prompt me to find and purchase a 252 (2010 vintage). The difference which this brought over the 282 was obvious (to me) from the outset. Very much like adding the olive supercap to the 282 only a bit more so. Although I kept the 282 for a few months after getting the 252 I never had the urge to go back to the 282 (great pre-amp though the 282 is).

I tend to identify with some of Simon-in-Suffolk’s comments over the degree of improvements that hifi upgrades bring. In my opinion, once a certain level is reached, improvements above this are more about finesse. Some such improvements have made me very pleased, despite the diminishing returns.

I’ve only heard 552/500 systems on three occasions. After the first, in the Kudos room at Bristol 2014, with Super 10s, I was left thinking "so that’s what it’s all about". More insight into the music, much easier to follow, and a sort of slowing down of time effect (of a Rodrigo y Gabriela track would you believe !) as I became more immersed in the music. I came away with thoughts of a secondhand 552, but no way would I spend £20k on a new one or go to a full 500 system. The second 552/500 I heard, in a demo room, was to my surprise, after much anticipation, a disappointment – the sound had scale and resolution, but seemed hollow. The third was at the 2016 Bristol show where Naim were demoing DR power amps and I didn’t get a clear impression of the 552/500’s superiority.  I was expecting it to be head and shoulders above the others, but thought the difference was more marginal. From those admittedly brief plays on the different kit, it seemed to me (a 252DR/300DR user) that while the higher level kit may have been better, the sound quality of a 272/250DR was close ‘enough’ to everything above it (including the 500 kit at the volume levels used). My impressions from brief demos is also that the gap between the 250DR and 300DR is smaller than the 250.2 and 300. Then again, what do I know (!) – think the 250.2 is a great amp and while the 300 lacked the resolution and sparkle of the DR amps, both times that I heard it (note – only twice and briefly) I asked myself whether I preferred the character (for want of a better word) of the 300 (smooth/effortless) over the 250DR/300DR. Would I have preferred the 300 over the 300DR if I’d had more time to compare and choose (?) – not going to go there – I’ve got the 300DR, so that’s it.  

So, to end my 'war and peace' length rambling, and to try to make sense of it, I can easily identify with Simon over what I will call his reserved comments on the 552. When I first heard it, courtesy of Kudos, it lived up to my expectations – within a full 500 system (using NDS). On the second and third occasions it didn’t and I was left thinking that in my listening room, the 252 is plenty, and a sound that I wouldn’t want to risk fiddling with. On the other hand, Gary and HH seem to be saying that in their experience of owning the 552, its clear superiority will be obvious if one lives with it for a reasonable demo period as they did. I can also go with that and it perhaps bears out what I’ve read on here from a couple of now 552 owners who, if I recall correctly, didn’t get the sense of an immediate ‘no questions for the money’ improvement from  the off.

I still tend to think that with any piece of kit, even a substantial improvement (what I believe I heard with the Kudos 500 system at Bristol in 2014) is still, in a hifi sense, about a degree of finesse and refinement rather than night and day. I’ve read posts by a number of people who have downgraded for whatever reason from high level kit, including 552, and who still (justifiably in my view) extol the virtues of Superuniti, 272, naits, V1/100 etc. This, I tend to think is not inconsistent with my view of things.

I really like what my 252DR does with my music – it was to me a worthwhile improvement over the 282 which I also really liked. Same analogy with the 300DR over the 250.2. I don’t regard either as night and day improvements and, as such, I would be cautious about recommending my kit to others, lest they hear things differently or be disappointed with the level of return either for the money or in absolute terms. Then again, I also wouldn’t want anyone to be put off by my coolness – to someone else these differences might well be ‘massive’ or night and day – everyone needs to find out for themselves - we all may, and are entitled, to view these things from our own perspective and value set.

Cheers.          

nicetone posted:

I find some comments here very interesting.

Back home with the new Supercap DR, expecting little difference in the sound, I thought, though I wasn’t absolutely certain (how quickly does the memory of what we hear fade/play tricks I ask myself), that the DR sound was leaner than with the olive supercap. I started to ask myself whether the system did now sound different, and, whether I p

After a while with the supercap DR, the thought that I was using only 4 power rails of this Naim ‘state of the art’ new unit played on my mind enough to prompt me to find and purchase a 252 (2010 vintage). The difference which this brought over the 282 was obvious (to me) from the outset. Very much like adding the olive supercap to the 282 only a bit more so. Although I kept the 282 for a few months after getting the 252 I never had the urge to go back to the 282 (great pre-amp though the 282 is).

I tend to identify with some of Simon-in-Suffolk’s comments over the degree of improvements that hifi upgrades bring. In my opinion, once a certain level is reached, improvements above this are more about finesse. Some such improvements have made me very pleased, despite the diminishing returns. 

Cheers.          

Nicetone, I understand where you are coming from, I feel the same way! I'm not an Engineer, or would consider myself and True grit Audiophile!

But earlier this year the Forum roasted me for suggesting, that a 282 might out perform an 202 due to the PS options available.

Likewise, an 252 might out perform an 282/SCDR due to the Analog out Burndy, located on the rear of the 252, Surely more information can be passed i.e a Burndy vs a Sniac.

Also, perhaps a 552 would have an added advantage being coupled with Naim's Top Tier PS (555PS)! 

Sure there will be other tweaks done as one moves up the ladder, but who can dispute Sonic gains brought on by superior gear!

Now the Statement, that's another Beast!  Rated @ 1 Horse Power!  (700 watts of raw power)!

I can't speak from experience, but one gentlemen stated, that 282/SCDR/250DR is about as good as it gets, until one reaches 552/500 Territory!

That's right the 500 a massive 140 Watts of raw power vs 90 watts, and a 555PSDR vs SCDR!

Well you get the point!  And yes I agree with both gents to a point, Sometimes the How, just overpowers the Why! 

Just my two cents!

Allante93! 

Allante93 posted:

         

 

Nicetone, I understand where you are coming from, I feel the same way! I'm not an Engineer, or would consider myself and True grit Audiophile!

But earlier this year the Forum roasted me for suggesting, that a 282 might out perform an 202 due to the PS options available.

Likewise, an 252 might out perform an 282/SCDR due to the Analog out Burndy, located on the rear of the 252, Surely more information can be passed i.e a Burndy vs a Sniac.

I don't think the differences have much if anything to do with the burny/Snaics. The 282 and 252s have different architectures inside and to my ears different presentations. 

Also, perhaps a 552 would have an added advantage being coupled with Naim's Top Tier PS (555PS)! 

No. The 552 has its own dedicated PSU. The 555PS can't be used on it or any other pre-amp, though it can be used on 272

Sure there will be other tweaks done as one moves up the ladder, but who can dispute Sonic gains brought on by superior gear!

Now the Statement, that's another Beast!  Rated @ 1 Horse Power!  (700 watts of raw power)!

I can't speak from experience, but one gentlemen stated, that 282/SCDR/250DR is about as good as it gets, until one reaches 552/500 Territory!

That's right the 500 a massive 140 Watts of raw power vs 90 watts, and a 555PSDR vs SCDR!

Well you get the point!  And yes I agree with both gents to a point, Sometimes the How, just overpowers the Why! 

Just my two cents!

Allante93! 

 

 

 

Power is vanity, performance is sanity.

MDS, I get it, but what I'm saying if the 202 & 282 had the same internal parts, which they don't, the 282 would still have the advantage with SC!

You are correct the 202 can't accept a SC.

Even if the internals were identical between the 282 & 252, which they aren't the 252 would have the advantage, whereas, the 282 can't accept a burndy.

Even if the internals were identical between the 252 & 552, which they aren't, the 552 would have the advantage, the 252 can't a 555PS.

My point, if one can hear the difference between an HCDR and SCDR with the same pre amp, surely the Pre amps would benefit from Interconnects and PS's.

I'm not discounting the tweaks and changes between the Pre amps that you mentioned, they can only add to the the already noticeable difference!

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

MDS, I get it, but what I'm saying if the 202 & 282 had the same internal parts, which they don't, the 282 would still have the advantage with SC!

You are correct the 202 can't accept a SC.

This is incorrect. The SC has no trouble hooking up to a 202 and in fact is not totally unheard of where the intent is to upgrade past the 282 direct to a  252.

But indeed, a Supercapped 202 is nothing like a 282 even when the 282 is powered by the output of  200. Ultimately, the 282 is more revealing and that includes more revealing of the benefit of the power supply. That said, I could live with a 202 happily ever after if that was as high as I could go. It's a great preamp.

feeling_zen posted:

Allante93 posted:

MDS, I get it, but what I'm saying if the 202 & 282 had the same internal parts, which they don't, the 282 would still have the advantage with SC!

You are correct the 202 can't accept a SC.

This is incorrect. The SC has no trouble hooking up to a 202 and in fact is not totally unheard of where the intent is to upgrade past the 282 direct to a  252.

But indeed, a Supercapped 202 is nothing like a 282 even when the 282 is powered by the output of  200. Ultimately, the 282 is more revealing and that includes more revealing of the benefit of the power supply. That said, I could live with a 202 happily ever after if that was as high as I could go. It's a great preamp.

My Mistake, but we all know the 202 doesn't have the capability of being powered by duel channels, 2 HC's , or A SC using two sniacs! 

But I know, you get the gist of my Argument, The 252 can only be powered by a SC, the 552 can only be powered by a 555PS, and in most cases the 202 is powered by the 200, FC, or HC!  Unless as you say, one has the intentions of bypassing the 282, and heading for the 252! 

Thanks for the correction! 

So I kinda of agree with Simon, that the difference is not all that great between an 252 and 552, on the other hand, John is saying the same thing when he says it doesn't get any 
better than a 282/SCDR/250DR until you get into 552/500 Territory! 

This is statement that I got from online, that got me ripped by the Forum: 

"The NAC202, 282 and 252 are alarmingly similar inside. The main differencesin the range are that the full potential of each pre amp is only possible with better power supply options. A NAC202 can only utlise a single HiCap so a HiCap with a digital PSU is as far as you can go with this very capable performer. From £600.

The Naim NAC282 is poor value, but still popular, this is largely a NAC202 with the ability to add a second HiCap. Not much else is different in real terms except some marginal improvements in earthing arrangements. Optimum configuration is two HiCaps and a NAPSC. From £1500 second hand.

As far as comparisons go with the NAC252 and NAC52 they ought to be similar, but they sound quite different. It's a long way off a NAC552 and not a massive improvement over a NAC282. Again, the ability to power this unit from a SuperCap is the secret, giving it far more individual supply rails raises the performance of an other similar design. Optimal configuration is with a SuperCap PSU. From £2,000 second hand.

Naim's outstanding product of the moment. Massive improvement over other models and massive increase in price as well. The first Naim preamp to use a split rail supply and benefit from less components in the signal path and reduced noise. Huge attention to detail and when moved or shipped needs transit screws fitted to lock the suspended circuit boards in place. With or without DR this is a superb pre-amp that will transform your system. RRP £19,750 Second hand from £5,000 Read more about the Naim NAC552"

Well what do you think Zen, you've already pointed out some errors, but you must admit, one can find some valid points! 

Please let us know when you get the 250DR in !  

Allante93! 

The 202, 282, 252 board layouts don't look remotely similar; use the same components; or even a similar number of components. Parts that are common are not selected from the same quality pools.

I would say that whoever that was quoted from either has never seen the insides of these preamps or was making intentionally stupid comments in order to provoke a reaction on the forum. Or possibly they really think they are  similar because they all use a green PCB. I would guess the poster has either a 202 they want to believe is as good as a 252, or they have a 552 and want to put as much psychological distance from the 252 as possible.

How valuable is it to promote suspicions with speculation?