A Naim Integrated Comparable To NAC282/NAP250DR Standard

I can say from experience:

SN2 - Very good value

SN2/HCDR - Not worth it ime. Something negative happens to the musicality of the bare SN2.

202/HCDR/Napsc 200 - Slightly more resolving than SN2. 'Live' recordings sound that bit more 'live' for example.

282/HCDR 200 - A bigger step than SN2 to 202/200 by some margin. A bigger and more believable window into the recording.

G

Thanks for the insight Graemeh. Much appreciated.

Haven't compared myself but the consensus seems to be that it lies in and around 202/200 level. Most people have a preference for one or the other presumably due to slightly different presentations. 

I've been using SN2 with HCDR for ~2,5 years now, since the SN2 was released, and to me this combo is definitely worth it. I recently tried to unplug the HCDR but it didn't work in my setup at all after that. It always comes to the synergy of the whole system. You can't just say SN2 + HCDR is not worth your time since it works so differently with different systems. Speakers play a huge role here. My speakers are very demanding and need plenty of power to sound good. HCDR clearly helps here, without it I lost great amount of control and attack from the sound. If you have easy to drive speakers then bare SN2 might very well be enough. 

I've heard 202/200 setups few times in different locations. It's been years though since the last time. I then used the original SuperNait myself and found the 202/200 combo to sound cleaner and better detailed but not as fun. But SN2 is very different beast than the original SN, performing clearly on different level. With HCDR, I've always placed it somewhere between 202/200 and 282/250 in performance.

I think the integrateds stand somewhat apart from the separate pre/power amplifiers.  This is because there's no getting away from the physics of the benefits of putting some distance between the amplification stages and the power supply stages.  So, all else being equal, i.e. taking all the internal parts of the SN2 and then putting them in two separate boxes on two separate shelves on a hifi rack, you're pretty much guaranteed to have a better performing amp than when it's all squeezed into the one box.  However, two boxes means your cost pretty much doubles for most things for perhaps only a relatively modest gain in performance, hence the one-box integrated is a compelling compromise and a desirable bit of kit in its own right.

FWIW, the SN2 is not really directly comparable to existing pre-amps or power amps in the Naim range.  For sure it uses circuitry derived from them, and IIRC, the original Supernait was pretty much a miniaturised surface-mount component  version of the NAC282 circuit and the power amp based on a beefed up Nait 5i amp with a bit of NAP200 thrown in.  I believe that the SN has most changes in the pre-amp circuit, adds a better headphone amp and also includes a DR regulator for the pre-amp stage.

As to how good a SN2 is against a pre/power, best get a listen and judge for yourself.  I haven't compared, but I'd be very surprised if a NAC202/NAP200DR didn't outperform a Supernait2.  However, a Supernait2 might just be preferable in some ways to a NAC152xs/NAP155xs.  It's all idle speculation for me as I haven't done the comparison.  However, "separates" are separate for a good reason.  You could make a one-box integrated that rivalled the same components in separate boxes, you just need to make a much bigger box and be very careful in how you position the constituent parts.  

Hope this post helps..

Thanks for the information, especially Richard's.

I currently own the NAC202/NAP200 non-DR. Will there be an appreciable if not significant improvement if the NAP200 is replaced with the NAP200 DR. What would be the expected improvements with the DR'd power amps? Tighter and more defined bass, clearer midrange etc.?

I am currently in the process of shortlisting a new integrated amp to obtain a "different flavour" from the Naim amps that I own (I have the Exposure 3010S2-D in mind), though I am curious about the quality of the Supernait2. I guess the move from the Supernait2 to the NAC202/NAP200 or vice versa would be lateral at best. Though the comment on the DR regulator for the Supernait2's preamp stage is interesting. Does the NAC202 have a DR regulator?

Pertinent points on the benefits of a 2-box separates versus one-box integrated solution. A quality integrated can only go so far in terms of sound quality, though the appeal lies in the simplicity and convenience of lesser boxes and cables.

The 200DR might be a cul-de-sac in that configuration as the DR element is only powering the 202.

Better and more versatile would be a HCDR on the 202 with Napsc.

G

ryder. posted:

 are there any plans from Naim to come up with a one-box integrated

I'm sure Naim are working on a new range of intg amplication, Statement & budget version as first bets

Something below Statement pre/power but much higher ranged than SN2 = very expensive £100-150K - there will be a market and Naim owners are very specific in focus on buttomline

In the lower budget range, 5Si has become to expensive, my bet a China manufactured amp £5-6K maybe Class D

Hi Ryder don't do it 

i still own my 202/200 and it s a serious hi fi kit with hicap DR

if anything improve your source add power lines and maybe super lumina speaker cables

or go for 272 or 282 and enjoy 

The DR of the 200DR only relates to the power supply for a connected preamp. Its power amp section is not DR. Adding a HicapDR and napsc is what I'd do, unless box count is critical. 

If the OP has a streaming source, the 272 with 200 or 250DR is a very fine alternative. As the 272 is self powered, the 200DR has little benefit, so a swap from 202 to 272 would be all that's required. Just a thought, which may or may not be relevant. 

analogmusic posted:

Hi Ryder don't do it 

i still own my 202/200 and it s a serious hi fi kit with hicap DR

if anything improve your source add power lines and maybe super lumina speaker cables

or go for 272 or 282 and enjoy 

Cables would be the last thing to consider on this level. Especially when PowerLines and SuperLumina are very expensive cables. NACA5 and Naim stock power cables do just fine. IME PowerLine doesn't always take the performance higher. I have one here in demo at the moment and prefer the stock power cable over it. There's much more to achieve with HCDR for example and it costs less than going the cable route.

All Naim dedicated pre amps get their power supply externally.  The 202 gets its power from a NAPSC and/or HICAP or a NAP 200/155.

The 200DR and HICAP DR will give DR regulated supply to the 202. Design wise the HICAP DR should be better as it has a dedicated transformer for the DR supply.  

The HICAP DR also gives flexibility if upgrading (as GreameH points out). The downside is box count.

Depending on where you want to end up, audition a 282 with the 200 alongside a HICAP DR with the 202 (and other options these components bring).  This should be relatively easy for a dealer to accommodate and will give you a good perspective on the next best investment with Naim.

HTH

Jude

Analog, out of interest, have you heard a SN2? 

analogmusic posted:

Hi Ryder don't do it 

i still own my 202/200 and it s a serious hi fi kit with hicap DR

if anything improve your source add power lines and maybe super lumina speaker cables

or go for 272 or 282 and enjoy 

Okay thanks for that. I agree that the NAC200/NAP200 is good (although may not be great when compared to NAC282/NAP250 or the higher level amps). I derive a lot of enjoyment from the system as it is. I have no plans to upgrade my existing Naim amps(I like the NAC202/NAP200's performance) but I do have the intention of getting a new integrated amp to swap in between systems.

As for the Super Lumina speaker cables, I still have 2 pairs of unused speaker cables (rather costly though not at the Super Lumina's level) so it is unlikely I will replace the NACA5 in the main system. As for power cords, similarly I have aftermarket cords for the source. Will investigate the Naim Powerline if I feel like it.

Please do yourself a favour and at least try a 282 in place of the 202 before you switch to another integrated. I found the move from 202 to 282 one of the most profound and rewarding upgrades I have made to date. As others have said if you have, or are planning to acquire, a streaming source I would also recommend you try a 272 . An upgrade to a 200DR from non DR will only give a marginal improvement IMHO, but the move from 202 to 282 - well give it a listen and decide for yourself.

Many Naim dealers will allow a home trail of these boxes and that is really the only way to evaluate if they suit you, your goals and the rest of your system. Try before you buy - risk free.

I'd put the SN2 above the 202/200/Napsc in terms of pure enjoyment. The 202/200 was faster, more detailed, but for me, ultimately fatiguing over time. The SN2 has a very complete, rounded performance, much like the NaitXS, with a little more of everything, think 72/Hi/250 and I'd say  your in the ballpark. Like the XS, it's a fit and forget amp that rewards highly the better the source, and at the point the SN2 is a bottleneck, you would have to spend some serious funds at the front end.

Looking at Ryder's profile, he already has a napsc and some sort of power supply. Maybe an integrated Krell to go with the CD player is an option. 

gary yeowell posted:

I'd put the SN2 above the 202/200/Napsc in terms of pure enjoyment. The 202/200 was faster, more detailed, but for me, ultimately fatiguing over time. The SN2 has a very complete, rounded performance, much like the NaitXS, with a little more of everything. I'd say the SN2 was more like 72/Hi/250 in terms of its togetherness. Like the XS, it's a fit and forget amp that rewards highly the better the source, and at the point the SN2 is a bottleneck, you would have to spend some serious funds at the front end.

Perfectly comprehensible Gary. Judging from your description, I would be inclined to think otherwise. Let me expand.

The thoughts would largely depend on the loudspeakers that are in use. I am on the Harbeth Super HL5, a speaker with a warm and "rounded" sound. I have tried at least half a dozen amps with the Harbeth speakers, and it is the 202/200 that do not sound "overly warm" with the Harbeths. Having said that, at times I still feel the sound of the 202/200 (in this case, the Harbeth SHL5) to be slightly warm and rounded. The influence of the loudspeakers is much greater than the amps(202/200) in this context, producing a warm and rounded sound.

I tried the Nait XS in my system as well, with the SHL5. As a matter of fact, I have the Rega Elicit with me at that time and compared both Nait XS and Rega Elicit with the Harbeth. The sound of the Nait XS is warmer and more rounded than the 202/200. The Nait XS - Harbeth  combination is too warm for my liking. Sounded a bit muddled with rolled off highs. The leaner and more detailed 202/200 matches the Harbeth speakers better.

The Rega Elicit and Nait XS are very close in sound signature. The Rega sounds slightly sweeter in the mids, but differences are not significant. A disclaimer is I did not have a power supply connected to the Nait XS. Perhaps with the Hicap DR the Nait XS will sound much better than the Rega Elicit.

I see you have the Kans. If the Kans are a lean and detailed speaker, I am not surprised you found the Supernait to sound better than the 202/200, with your Kans.

No Ryder, my comments are not with Kans at all. They are used only in small amounts and mostly with a Nait 2. My experience with 202/200 was with either Ovator S400, SL2, Shahinian Arc and Compass. The Nait XS always had a Flatcap 2X, or Hicap DR, and worked better than the 202/200 on the Ovators. With the Shahinian speakers, the extra grip of the SN2 is welcome over the XS. At no point did i ever really enjoy the 202/200.

Mayor West posted:

Analog, out of interest, have you heard a SN2? 

Hi, never heard the SN2 so can't comment, but I had some set up issues (please see below) which I now corrected and  202/200/NAPSC/HCDR or HC gives a very convincing performance with Rock/Hip Hop/Dance music for me. 

I have a 282/250DR/HCDR in another room, and yes it is much better, but - they are both musically enjoyable with the music I like most.

I have heard SN1 sound good but only at dealer showroom, I did suspect sub-optimal set up at a friends place.

It is in the manual by the way

Personally I prefered the bare SN2 to the 202/200 when I compared them.  Didn't really enjoy the latter as much as I thought I would but it is all about personal taste.  I have a hicap dr on my SN2 and personally I think this elevates the amp and I would be loath to do without it now.

Hi Analog, I only ask because like Gary mentions above, for me the SN2 is very much like the Nait XS but better. I know you've mentioned that you really liked the Nait XS so was interested to hear your thoughts if you had heard the SN2. 

RYDER - I actually own and run both SN2 and 282/SCDR/250DR as two separate systems. Sources are almost the same in both cases.

The 'only' reason I still use SN2 is a very pragmatic one - I've ran out of space to stash all the boxes in the music room.

Don't get me wrong - it is a very good integrated amp with a decent headphone amp. But it's a bit unfair comparing it to a good separate set up. They are both fit for purpose. It's just that a purpose is a bit diferent in case of each one.

Mayor West posted:

Hi Analog, I only ask because like Gary mentions above, for me the SN2 is very much like the Nait XS but better. I know you've mentioned that you really liked the Nait XS so was interested to hear your thoughts if you had heard the SN2. 

Since you have the Hugo, I would not personally switch from the SN2 to separates (cost, hassle, inconvenience). 

I would, however add a HCDR to the SN2. It really took the SN1 to another level. The SN2 has a DR regulator, but adding a massive (HCDR) power supply to the preamp of any Naim amp that can make use of it, really takes the sound to another league (for me, IMHO, YMMV)

The nice thing about the Hugo is that there is no power supply upgrade needed

I find differences in sources far, far larger than spending money on amplifier upgrades, and you got the Hugo. I am sure it is a very nicely balanced sound you have.

But there is only one way for the OP to establish what his next best step is and that involves good old fashioned leg work and to home demo as much of the alternatives he can lay his hands on.