A Naim Integrated Comparable To NAC282/NAP250DR Standard

Christopher_M posted:

Moussa, I had the original XS. I didn't find the original SN a big enough step. In fact, in some ways, it was worse. I fully realise it's not a SN2. I went to a pre power to get a significant improvement on the wonderful XS. YMMV.

Chris

Thanks Chris for your comment, If the SN2 doesn't add a significant boost in terms of performance then I guess separates is where I will go

Moussa posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Moussa, I had the original XS. I didn't find the original SN a big enough step. In fact, in some ways, it was worse. I fully realise it's not a SN2. I went to a pre power to get a significant improvement on the wonderful XS. YMMV.

Chris

Thanks Chris for your comment, If the SN2 doesn't add a significant boost in terms of performance then I guess separates is where I will go

Even though Chris here clearly states that SN is not SN2, people seem to mix these two amplifiers very often. I think it just happened to Moussa here also.

Pretty much only similarity between these two amplifiers is the name. SN2 is on completely different level of performance than the original SN. It has more power, it digs deeper in the recording with more authority, speed, details... everything is better. After SN2, the original SN sounds slow, muffled and lifeless. It's like there's a veil covering the music. Bass doesn't hit nearly as deep and comes with less power. Upgrading from SN to SN2 has been probably the biggest step forward I've taken with Naim. I hold it in higher regard than going from the integrated DAC of SN to the separate Naim DAC (of course the difference was massive here also).

SN2 also has better headphone amplifier with proper 1/4" output and it doesn't have the integrated DAC anymore so more focus on pre and poweramp stages. 

So people, please don't mix these two amplifiers. If you've only heard the original SN, you know nothing about the SN2 and vice versa. 

Yes Patu, people seem to talk of SN and SN2 as much the same thing. You are correct with your observations.

As an SN2 owner, I hope it's not comparable! If the SN2 comes even close to either 272/252DR or 282/250DR then it is a wonderful "value" proposition:

According to the NAIM price list for USA 2016:

272+250DR = $12,990 USD / 8,850 GBP ($19,595 USD with XPS-DR / 13,350 GBP)
282+250DR = $14,990 USD / 10,210 GBP ($21,585 USD with XPS-DR / 14,705 GBP)

vs.

SN2 = $5,695 USD / 3,880 GBP ($8,290 USD with HiCap-DR / 5,650 GBP)

(All prices are MSRP*)

Meaning, to me, if the SN2 is half as good as either of the above separate combos, then it is living up to its expectation. Anything more is gravy and makes it a relative bargain.

*Disclaimer: I know no one ever pays MSRP!

If I had the $$$, I would personally aim for the 282/250DR combo as a possible upgrade. I question the longevity of high-tech products like the 272 and their ability to adapt with new tech and formats. Those of you with deep pockets and can exchange something like a 272 for the next best thing every year, then this is no issue for you. The SN2 for me is a alone a long-term "investment." 

As for a new integrated from NAIM, I bet they have a "Statement" level integrated ("SI") in the works. I personally would like to see them follow the basic design principle of the Dan D'Agostino Momentum Integrated: a footprint that is slightly larger than the SN2 but the integrated amp sits on its separate dedicated power supply. NAIM could price it between the Devialet Le 800 ($30,000 USD) or Momentum ($45,000 USD) and the 552/500DR ($70,000 USD) combo. 

nigelb posted:

GraemeH posted:

This thread is becoming a masterclass in saying the same thing over and over again.

G

Yes, indeed this thread is certainly saying the same things over and over again. Indeed. 

Oops.. Was it me?

Patu posted:

Moussa posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Moussa, I had the original XS. I didn't find the original SN a big enough step. In fact, in some ways, it was worse. I fully realise it's not a SN2. I went to a pre power to get a significant improvement on the wonderful XS. YMMV.

Chris

Thanks Chris for your comment, If the SN2 doesn't add a significant boost in terms of performance then I guess separates is where I will go

Even though Chris here clearly states that SN is not SN2, people seem to mix these two amplifiers very often. I think it just happened to Moussa here also.

Pretty much only similarity between these two amplifiers is the name. SN2 is on completely different level of performance than the original SN. It has more power, it digs deeper in the recording with more authority, speed, details... everything is better. After SN2, the original SN sounds slow, muffled and lifeless. It's like there's a veil covering the music. Bass doesn't hit nearly as deep and comes with less power. Upgrading from SN to SN2 has been probably the biggest step forward I've taken with Naim. I hold it in higher regard than going from the integrated DAC of SN to the separate Naim DAC (of course the difference was massive here also).

SN2 also has better headphone amplifier with proper 1/4" output and it doesn't have the integrated DAC anymore so more focus on pre and poweramp stages. 

So people, please don't mix these two amplifiers. If you've only heard the original SN, you know nothing about the SN2 and vice versa. 

Thanks Patu for pointing this out, I am aware that the SN2 is a different beast than the old SN and thats why I want to audition it without any prejudices. Right now I have a Hicap DR with my XS-2 so will have to see how SN2 naked performes first and then add the hicap to see its impact.

I have been told that LFD integrated amp is quite good. If it is true that it is that good, then it must be a pretty good achievement from integrated amp design perspective, 

Peter, I listened to LFD NCSE Mk2 with Spendor D7 and it is a fabulous combination. The midrange is just magical so lush and warm with amazing clarity especially with female vocals. I can clearly say that LFD for mid range is one of the best amps that I heard and it reminded me of the Accuphase midrange (at least to me). I don't like to say that LFD is better or worse than Naim, as my Nait XS-2 clearly does other things better, so LFD as amazing as it is, it won't replace my trusted Naim.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I got tired going back and forth to the amp between tracks to adjust the volume to my preference, something that I found I can't live with. (For those who don't know LFD, they don't come with remote controls)

Thanks Patu. All I was trying to very generally say was that before the advent of the fabulous Naits, Naim's expertise was in pre-powers. Nothing's changed imo. That doesn't take anything away from any of the Naits.

Chris

* Yes, I've made an arse of 'reply with quote'.

Having owned both SN and SN2 with a HicapDR, I can say that I like both of them.

Stop dicing the original SN. I enjoyed it as much as I enjoy my current SN2. I traded the SN in because it was near an age where its value would drop when sold, or I would have to recap it.

kmchow98 posted:

Having owned both SN and SN2 with a HicapDR, I can say that I like both of them.

Stop dicing the original SN. I enjoyed it as much as I enjoy my current SN2. I traded the SN in because it was near an age where its value would drop when sold, or I would have to recap it.

I enjoyed the original SN very much also. It's what brought me to Naim in the first place, my first experience with the brand. There's all the Naim goodness in the sound of original SN also. I only had to audition it briefly to realise that I had missed something all these years and Naim brought it in. That was PRaT btw, the strongest area of Naim.

But in this hobby you live happily with your setup until you hear something better. After that the old component loses its magic or at least feels like a lesser piece. That's the case here also. SN simply doesn't match SN2. I would probably feel the same about SN2 now if I would throw in 282/250 for example. 

Hi Ryder, it is good to have you back to Naim forum after disappearing so many months and more importantly getting your Naim system into the grooving mood again. I assumed you have now back to your hometown after being assigned to work away from home and hence deprived you the time to play with your system.

I can understand how your curiosity get the better of you suddenly back to playing your Hi-Fi system to enjoy good music again. I think I can offer you some of my views because I have owned various Naim amps such as Nait 5i, Nait XS, Nac202/Nap200 & the current Nac282/Nap250. On top of that, I am still having Harbeth C7ES3 that have stood the test of time. For due respect IMO it is not worth a single penny to invest in an integrated amplifier having owned a pre/power particularly Exposure integrated which its signature sound resembled Naim to some extent. It would be a different story if you are looking for a totally different sound, ie a tube integrated in this case. If you need the urge to try some upgrades or some changes to your system in the context of amplification, you owe yourself to try a Nac282 to partner your Nap200. I am speaking from experience because I have lived with Nac282/Nap200 for a short while powering the Harbeth, this combo gave me a jaw dropping experience I could never forget. From Nac202 to Nac282, the improvement in all departments are significant not subtle by any means. Dare I say night & day difference. I could easily live with Nac282/Nap200 have my dealer not offered me brand new Nap250 price that was no way to resist. I think you can easily find a Nac282 in the used market and this is good news. Usually I would say take my advice with a grain of salt as our opinions may divide but that is not happening if you throw a Nac282 into your system. Better still a HCDR to power it and you will quick to forget the idea of getting an integrated.

Would love to hear you go from here.

I would agree, the 282 is one of the VFM super-performers in the Naim range, and some do say 282/SC is only bettered by 552 !

mikapoh posted:

Hi Ryder, it is good to have you back to Naim forum after disappearing so many months and more importantly getting your Naim system into the grooving mood again. I assumed you have now back to your hometown after being assigned to work away from home and hence deprived you the time to play with your system.

I can understand how your curiosity get the better of you suddenly back to playing your Hi-Fi system to enjoy good music again. I think I can offer you some of my views because I have owned various Naim amps such as Nait 5i, Nait XS, Nac202/Nap200 & the current Nac282/Nap250. On top of that, I am still having Harbeth C7ES3 that have stood the test of time. For due respect IMO it is not worth a single penny to invest in an integrated amplifier having owned a pre/power particularly Exposure integrated which its signature sound resembled Naim to some extent. It would be a different story if you are looking for a totally different sound, ie a tube integrated in this case. If you need the urge to try some upgrades or some changes to your system in the context of amplification, you owe yourself to try a Nac282 to partner your Nap200. I am speaking from experience because I have lived with Nac282/Nap200 for a short while powering the Harbeth, this combo gave me a jaw dropping experience I could never forget. From Nac202 to Nac282, the improvement in all departments are significant not subtle by any means. Dare I say night & day difference. I could easily live with Nac282/Nap200 have my dealer not offered me brand new Nap250 price that was no way to resist. I think you can easily find a Nac282 in the used market and this is good news. Usually I would say take my advice with a grain of salt as our opinions may divide but that is not happening if you throw a Nac282 into your system. Better still a HCDR to power it and you will quick to forget the idea of getting an integrated.

Would love to hear you go from here.

 

 

Hi Mikapoh,

It has been a long time for sure. Good to hear from you. Yes, I have been traveling and busy at work. And what a turn of events after all these years (5 years?). From the modest Nait XS to the NAC202/NAP200 and now the NAC282/NAP250. That is some development there. Cripes. Looks like I may need to ditch the Exposure plan. Just out of interest, what is the Exposure model that you have listened to which performed poorly next to the Naim separates? Was it the 2010S2 or 3010S2 integrated?

Good that you still have the Harbeth speakers. Mine has stood the test of time as well. After trying half a dozen amps during the crazy days about 5+ years ago, I am now back, looking to improve the performance of the speakers via the amplifier route (and not vice versa). Looks like my plans to put a halt to all this frenzy may well change after knowing about your experience with the Harbeth C7ES3. Several questions as follows:-

1. How long did you have the NAC202/NAP200 in your system. Was it a huge enough jump from the Nait XS with the C7ES3. Could you describe in brief on the changes/improvements (When I had the Nait XS, I didn't have the NAC202/NAP200 in my system yet).

2. How long did you have the NAC282/NAP200 in your system. Could you briefly describe on the perceived *staggering* improvements.

3. The new addition of the NAP250 to your current NAC282/NAP250. How did this power amp benefit the system?

Oh dear, it looks like I may be heading toward a total revamp of the system..

Achique, 

With regard to the original Supernait vs. the 5 series separates;

My experience of comparing the NAC122x/FC2x/NAP150x against the original Supernait left me with the impression of two quite different sides to the coin of Naim performance; the SN was warmer and more muscular, perhaps a little bit fuzzier, but seemed less agile and rhythmic than the 5 series separates.  

I had heard the 5 series setup do great things partnered with the matching CD5x, whether it be on entry level Naim speakers (n-Sat, Ariva, or Allae) or something like the Neat Elite, which seemed a really great match too.

I was a bit ambivalent about the original SN, it seemed different to Naim amps up until that time.  I like it very much, but it hadn't wowed me - right up until I heard it with a CDX2, a Hicap and a pair of non-Naim speakers.  Then, on that afternoon/evening, it made some magic. 

Peter Dinh posted:

I have been told that LFD integrated amp is quite good. If it is true that it is that good, then it must be a pretty good achievement from integrated amp design perspective, 

I missed your post. Back in the crazy days, the LFD Zero LE III was one of the integrateds that I experienced in my system. With the Harbeth speakers, the sound was sublime. There is a certain wonderful tube-like glow in the midrange and highs with the LFD amp that the Naim amps couldn't replicate, though the Naims still held the advantage when it comes to musicality, impeccable timing and rhythmic beat. Something that is difficult to explain with Naim gear. It is the coherence and toe-tapping factor in the way the Naim amp(s) present music as a whole. As what hungryhalibut had mentioned in another thread, there is no inky blackness(very low floor noise), no pin point accuracy or detail from the likes of Devialet or other high-end brands, no glowing tube-like warmth or sweetness from tube-based gear etc. It is in the way that Naim presents music that sets it apart from the rest. 

By the way, the biggest drawback of LFD amps is the low build quality and fit and finish. Both sound and build quality are equally important to me, and for this reason I disregarded the LFD although it sounded quite stellar with the Harbeth speakers.  The casing of the LFD Zero looks cheap, and the internal circuitry of the amp doesn't look good. All these may not be related to sound quality, but they do matter to me. I am fine if others accuse me of being too critical.

I'm not really sure where this thread has got to, but it strikes me is that the answer may be to forget buying an integrated and use the money saved to upgrade the 202/200 to 282 and 250DR. You will then have something that is as good as a 282/250DR, which seems to be the object of the exercise. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not really sure where this thread has got to, but it strikes me is that the answer may be to forget buying an integrated and use the money saved to upgrade the 202/200 to 282 and 250DR. You will then have something that is as good as a 282/250DR, which seems to be the object of the exercise. 

To be honest, when i started this thread all i wanted to know is as written on the title. I am curious to know if there will be a Naim integrated amp in the near future that will be equal if not better in performance than the 282/250. I do not have intention to upgrade my 202/200 amps. Nevertheless, I am not disregarding the option now. 

Hi,

As Nigel said, since you already have 202/200, forget about integrates. You may eventually consider a HC DR for the preamp. I used a SN2 for a while , despite  it was a fine and smooth performer, it  was nowhere near as good like 282/250 for clarity, speed and control on the bass.

Regards

Roberto

I doubt very much that Naim would release an integrated to challenge a 282/250.

From the start of Naim they have always believed that separates give better performance.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not really sure where this thread has got to, but it strikes me is that the answer may be to forget buying an integrated and use the money saved to upgrade the 202/200 to 282 and 250DR. You will then have something that is as good as a 282/250DR, which seems to be the object of the exercise. 

Correct - if you want what the 282/250 delivers then buy it - it's sublime.  A SN2 is excellent but not the same - nor can it be.  Sorry for being blunt.

Regards,

Lindsay

ryder. posted:

Hi Mikapoh,

It has been a long time for sure. Good to hear from you. Yes, I have been traveling and busy at work. And what a turn of events after all these years (5 years?). From the modest Nait XS to the NAC202/NAP200 and now the NAC282/NAP250. That is some development there. Cripes. Looks like I may need to ditch the Exposure plan. Just out of interest, what is the Exposure model that you have listened to which performed poorly next to the Naim separates? Was it the 2010S2 or 3010S2 integrated?

Good that you still have the Harbeth speakers. Mine has stood the test of time as well. After trying half a dozen amps during the crazy days about 5+ years ago, I am now back, looking to improve the performance of the speakers via the amplifier route (and not vice versa). Looks like my plans to put a halt to all this frenzy may well change after knowing about your experience with the Harbeth C7ES3. Several questions as follows:-

1. How long did you have the NAC202/NAP200 in your system. Was it a huge enough jump from the Nait XS with the C7ES3. Could you describe in brief on the changes/improvements (When I had the Nait XS, I didn't have the NAC202/NAP200 in my system yet).

I had Nac202/Nap200 in my system for nearly 2 years before I upgraded to Nac282/Nap250.2. It was pretty straight forward & easy to spot what the pre/power had brought to the party from the off. But how could one compare Naim Classic pre/power to Nait XS, certainly a huge jump even without a HCDR on it. The details extraction, dynamic swings, more pronounced deep bass and more importantly better grips overall. 

2. How long did you have the NAC282/NAP200 in your system. Could you briefly describe on the perceived *staggering* improvements.

My Nac282 was a demo set from my dealer who loaned me for home audition. The Nap200 did not stay long enough for me because the offer for brand new Nap250.2 came sooner than expected. If not mistaken, NAc282/Nap200 lasted for 6 months or so. Yeah I was very surprised & thrilled with the Nac282. Everything Nac202 can do, it can do much better, more energy, more open, more scale and more of everything in a good way. You can never go wrong with it even without a home demo. I still remembered this combo was high recommended by Richard Dane in one of his post.  

3. The new addition of the NAP250 to your current NAC282/NAP250. How did this power amp benefit the system?

As you know, Power Amp added more grips on the speakers especially Harbeth drivers that IMO required beefier amplification to control its huge drivers. Nap250.2 is not a sluggish amp, in fact it is quite the opposite slam hard, very agile and hit deep whenever music calls for. with Nap250.2 as its natural partner, the extended frequency band and sonic details of Nac282 will come in spades.  

Oh dear, it looks like I may be heading toward a total revamp of the system..

 

 

Ryder, you are certainly very demanding when raising your questions..... 

Please find my replies above. When comes to upgrade from Nac202 to Nac282, the law of diminishing return will not apply! Go figure and have fun.

The only gripe I had at the time of receiving my Nap250.2 was the DR version was already in production. I was not well informed but life goes on.....

mikapoh posted:

The only gripe I had at the time of receiving my Nap250.2 was the DR version was already in production. I was not well informed but life goes on.....

That would be very frustrating. But try not to let all the hyperbole around the 250DR get to you. While the Brits are known for our understatement, the same cannot be said of this forum. A 250.2 is as good now as it was 10 years ago. And go back even further before Statement or 500 series and a 250 occupied the space in Naim's hierarchy that the NAP500 takes now (flagship stereo poweramp).

But the 250 DR is so amazing..... Mikapoh life is short, just do the upgrade