Super Lumina chapter three.

Yes we hear things differently but to have such opposing views makes me think there is something else at play here. I found the exact opposite with the SL IC in that rather than kill the life of the music it in fact added life to the music by removing the slight bloom I found with the SSA that led to a slight slowness to leading edges and replacing that with a more incisive and insightful presentation with the SL IC which I preferred.

I come back to the point that those that preferred the SSA are all (it seems) using a 552 (and 500 in most cases) whereas I use a 252DR and 250DR. It could be that the extra resolution and agility of the 552/500 combination suits the SSA. But this is pure speculation on my part.

My dealer believes the the XLR-din gives a bigger benefit than the speaker cables and is not a fan of the high end Chord cables, so it seems that personal taste is a big factor. Presumably, Naim would noticed that their flagship cable "kills the life of the music" during R&D and testing if it was clear and obvious? Or, maybe it's system dependant?

I'm now on day 5 of the run in of my SL interconnect and speaker cables and won't consider trying in XLR-din until I've recovered from the financial shock. 

Keith

Sometimes the new component highlights something that is not optimal elsewhere.

When I got my brand new 250 DR, I thought it was slow to run in, and then finally it started sounding right. So I though OH, that's the run in done, but still after a few days, it still was not singing to my satisfaction. It drove me to great despair I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what it was.

2 set up mistakes needed to be corrected before I could enjoy music 100 % on the new DR amp

1) I don't have a Naim source, and neither my Hugo not my turntable have signal earth connected to mains earth. So I got this done and the missing PRAT was back. or so I thought, then after a few days, I still have concerns. Anyway this was pointed out by Simon-in-Suffolk (thank you Simon !)

2) I had a loose headphone to DIN connected for my Chord Mojo. I don't know why, but the 282 does not sound optimal when having an "loose" interconnect (connected to 282, but not connected to a source on the other end)

Once I pulled the interconnect out, all was much better. (I am being modest, now, my 2 naim systems sound absolutely magical, musical, world class, and Jaw droppingly AWESOME). I played a demo track on Hugo/282/HCDR/250DR yesterday to a friend, and to my ears it sounded really damn good. 

Now all this suboptimal setup was there with the NAP 200 (truth be told, I could never replicate the showroom demo sound of 202/200 which I heard in the UK), but the 200 sounded a bit exuberant and fast, so I got used to that sound (which was sub-optimal), and once the 250 DR was there, it is more truthful and transparent.

I also tried SL cables, but it did not give much improvement, but then I had these 2 set up mistakes. I now sincerely look forward to trying them, and I am now sure I will hear what they are about

I very much doubt that Naim would get the SuperLumina wrong. If it sounds as if it killed the music, well in my humble view it is highlighting setup issues somewhere else in the system

It is not easy to find that mistake, could be a silly one like I made (no.2) or the complicated issue of signal grounding, could be a sub-optimal burndy, or indeed anything else like an earth loop.

That is where a good dealer comes in and spots these issues right away.

 This morning my DAC V1/202/200 sounded bass heavy and a bit slow, so I looked for that headphone to DIN interconnect (which I use for the Hugo and Mojo) and it was still attached to the 202, once pulled out, the magic was back. I connected it last night to listen to the chord mojo, but forgot to pull it out of the 202 and I am taking the Mojo with me in the car to work.

That is really strange, though, can anyone explain what is going on ?

Back to the main point though : I have no doubt the Superlumina is indeed the better cable 

analogmusic posted:

I very much doubt that Naim would get the Super Lumina wrong.

Ovator? Or at least it could be a contributing factor.

I am still a fan of the SL speaker cable and think that it is pretty good value for money - although a couple of others have dropped the "kills the music" bomb on that too after extended listening.

As far as I know, there really aren't any "defects" in my system that could possibly explain why the SL didn't work yet the SSA did. KRM, and others, have hit the nail on the head - it's something to do with system synergy. Note, I posted that the SL certainly gave more detail, which was good, but the timing of music which drives the tune forward was adversely affected. Could be that it's just what I find most important, but I would be most surprised if any of my hi-fi friends, were they to hear the SL in my system, would come to a different conclusion.

Adding SL wires to my system made it far more musical and enjoyable, to the point where the system itself is virtually invisible. Maybe it's because all my boxes are 'new Naim' and DR, I don't know. If others prefer other cables, that's fine too, and no-one should feel that they have to justify themselves - just because something is Naim doesn't make it the best. 

Hi TonyM

My friend and I tried SL speaker cables on his 552/500 and a new Vertere speaker cable of that league... Same as you, the Vertere speaker cable enhanced the music, but the SL killed the musical flow. Or so it seems.... All is not always what it seems in life.

what transpired though is that he had an earth loop. 

He has a CD555 connected and an HDX/NDAC also connected, and the grounding switch was set on chassis on the NDAC.

In a Naim system only one source should have signal earth connected to mains earth, and in a Naim CD player this is always the case. It is there in NDAC manual, and the NAP 500 manual. 

So the SL told the truth about the earth loop, and the Vertere did something else altogether, which was very pleasing to the ears. He bought the Vertere.

Now is it the fault of the SL cable? 

Now his system sounds much better with the NDAC set on floating which now ensures there is no earth loop.

Not sure anyone is trying to justify themselves it is just intriguing that a number of us can hear very different (even opposing) results by using the same leads - interesting to try and understand why.

Chris Dolan posted:

Indeed Ken - some people are not converts to the Radikal 

Hej Chris, watch it! 

enjoy

ken

nigelb posted:

...

I come back to the point that those that preferred the SSA are all (it seems) using a 552 (and 500 in most cases) whereas I use a 252DR and 250DR. It could be that the extra resolution and agility of the 552/500 combination suits the SSA. But this is pure speculation on my part.

not quite. i have 552/2x500 active and i dont recognize some of the negative characteristics attributed to the SL.  but there are many other variables at play here -- not least of which system and its environment -- and of course, the boring 'preference'.

enjoy

ken

analogmusic posted:

 

I also tried SL cables, but it did not give much improvement, but then I had these 2 set up mistakes. I now sincerely look forward to trying them, and I am now sure I will hear what they are about 

had a similat experience some time ago when i upgrade my snaxo supercap to DR. system was fantastic to start with then a few days later -- collapsed. initially thought it was supercap run-in blues --but didnt seem to get better with time. real puzzle. eventually traced it to a loose mains earth and all was back to normal.

but i doubt this is what explains the SL vs SSA difference in various systems. other than system envirioment and preference -- i dont really know whats going on here. But I cannot believe that either cable brand would sound unmusical (unless something else is wrong) given the philosophy of the makers. i can believe that both cables would sound very good (all things being equal) in a given system and that the choice of which one to go for would then be a matter of personal preference, largely...

enjoy

ken

There really is no mystery here. Bearing in mind, those of us posting here are converts to the Naim sound, so the matter of personal preference has very little to do with it. So much of hi-fi forums are taken up by people trying to argue that what they've invested in is better than the alternatives, and if others don't happen have the same experience then it must be to do with defects in their equipment.

Every system is unique, and consequently behaves in different ways to any other. It's simple. Listen in your own system and don't be too swayed by others' opinions.

tonym posted:

...Note, I posted that the SL certainly gave more detail, which was good, but the timing of music which drives the tune forward was adversely affected. Could be that it's just what I find most important, but I would be most surprised if any of my hi-fi friends, were they to hear the SL in my system, would come to a different conclusion.

i also would find it very odd that Naim would release a component that advsersely affects timing Tony, given that this is one of their strong points -- but of course, i am not saying this is impossible. 

over the past month or so, i have been fettling the streaming side of my system and in the process have gone through configurations that affect the music (timing and all) in ways that i didnt think possible.  

i dont know why SL speaker cables were not to your liking in your fab system Tony. But i guess i am not really qualified to comment as i havent tried SL speaker cables yet in my system. I only have the SL IC and SL snaxo and these worked precisely as i expect Naim components to work. perhaps i will get an unpleasant surprise when i try SL speaker cables -- dunno... 

enjoy

ken

tonym posted:

....Every system is unique, and consequently behaves in different ways to any other. It's simple. Listen in your own system and don't be too swayed by others' opinions.

Oh, i definitely agree !

enjoy...

ken

I hear more detail and better imaging, but not at the expense of timing. If anything the latter is enhanced and it was the idea that I get the best of both worlds - more hifi and more music - that sold SL cables to me.

Perhaps some of us don't want or like or value the former and just want more of the latter? It's a bit like the 252 verses 282. The former is smoother and more refined and some just don't want that. They prefer the ballsier sound of 282 or go all out for the 552, which is so much better the debate is resolved (at a not inconsiderable price penalty).

Keith

I don't think an issue of Naim "getting it wrong" with SL, rather that Chord got it so right with SSA. In fact you'd not even be aware of it if you hadn't heard them side by side. In most cases I suspect SL advocates have not had the opportunity to do that.

Dave J posted:

I don't think an issue of Naim "getting it wrong" with SL, rather that Chord got it so right with SSA. In fact you'd not even be aware of it if you hadn't heard them side by side. In most cases I suspect SL advocates have not had the opportunity to do that.

unless i am mistaken, in which case someone will correct me, but we are hearing from both camps though.

There are those who have tried SL (or Chord SSA) in isolation and not liked it for one reason or another.

Then there are those that have compared SL with SSA and preferred one or the other.

in my case, i have SL IC and snaxo which are working very well. i dont like mixing and matching, so will end up with either all SL (more likely as Chord dont do the saxo cable) -- which is just a continuation of what i already have, or all Chord, which will be a change in direction and will need strong justification -- such as CHord is fundamentally better on all counts.

from reports here -- there doesnt seem to be universal preference for one or the other -- and usual issues such as system dependency etc etc seems to be a factor.

fascinating though...

enjoy...

ken

I believe Tony refers to the interconnect rather than the speaker cables. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I believe Tony refers to the interconnect rather than the speaker cables. 

thanks for correction HH...

enjoy...

ken

I do indeed Mr Halibut. I shall at some stage be trying the 552 to SNAXO SL. As Ken notes, Chord don't make an equivalent, although I don't currently use the Standard Naim version. I shall not be trying the SL speaker cable; not because I don't think it'll be any good but because I would need three 9M pairs and it's too dear. Having my 500s DRd will cost the same and is my preference.

I do wish some folk would stop insisting that, because the Phono to DIN SL interconnect didn't work in my system, that either something's wrong (which makes as much sense as Boris Johnson) or that I've become deaf or idiotic (well, no more than normal anyway...). Accept and move on.

tonym posted:

There really is no mystery here.

With respect, Tony, I'm just giving my limited experience and mistakes that I made to be helpful, not trying to undermine your view in any way at all.

For instance I spoke to Chord and the Chord Dave has signal earth connected to mains earth, whereas for your QBD76, the signal earth is floating (i.e. not connected to mains earth).

In case your LP12 has signal earth connected to mains earth, then the moment you hooked up the Dave, you had an earth loop.

So the "mystery" has been referred to by another forum member as "the grandest of Naim mysteries" the signal earthing issue, once outside Naim sources, no real way to know for sure whether you  have grounded the inputs to the preamp, unless you ask the manufacturer, which in this case has a different scheme for their 2 products 

Anyway, moving on, going back to my system to enjoy the music. 

Not time to move on just yet. The earthing matter is a red herring. If as you suggest there was an "earth loop" then, apart from induced hum, the Chord SSL would also sound poor, so would the standard Naim interconnect. The latter works well enough, the Chord considerably better, the SL doesn't. Don't try & muddy the water, it's a bit insulting. Having used A/V systems for donkey's years I'm well aquainted with earth loops.

from reports here -- there doesnt seem to be universal preference for one or the other -- and usual issues such as system dependency etc etc seems to be a factor.

fascinating though...

enjoy...

ken

The cause for that could be the fair amount of brand loyalty for Naim products, and many naimie folk will gravitate their decision to invest in preference to SL with feelings of conviction it will be more suitable, compatible, have synergy, etc.

Hypothetically speaking; if the SL cables were not made by Naim - lets just for a moment say they were made by Roksan and they are called the Roksan Super Lumina,  then i would think very few people on this forum would have even heard of them, let alone bought one, or a set, and in such case the Chord Company cables may well have become a brand far more accepted in generally preference to replace with are time honoured old standard naim.

I would also argue that the Super Sarum Aray cables retain and convey far more 'naim sound' than the Super Lumina which appear to be a step in a different direction from the usual Naim, obviously that direction is the Statement amp, and one has to decide if these statement amp cables really are the best cables for sound quality and price for lesser Naim products.

IMO it's essential to have an A/B demo, and to hear the differences before committing to purchase.

Debs