Super Lumina chapter three.

Hi TonyM

I am not insulting anyone here, neither I am trying to muddy the water at all 

On my friends 552/500 even though he had an earth loop for a few weeks, we could not hear anything wrong, there was no hum at all, it just sounded a tiny bit brighter than usual (and that too in hindsight), but we both had no idea that anything was sub-optimal as it is a very subtle and difficult to detect issue.

as I said I am not trying to undermine your preferences at all, you are fully entitled to your preference of one cable over the other. 

I hope I am able to convey that I am just sharing my experiences in the spirit of being helpful ? 

Anyway, both my Naim system are now performing very well (AC/DC live sounds fantastic with Angus and Brian Johnson and the band sounding at their very best), with the standard NACA5 and standard SNAICS, so back to the music... with a smile ....

naim_nymph posted:

from reports here -- there doesnt seem to be universal preference for one or the other -- and usual issues such as system dependency etc etc seems to be a factor.

fascinating though...

enjoy...

ken

 

The cause for that could be the fair amount of brand loyalty for Naim products, and many naimie folk will gravitate their decision to invest in preference to SL with feelings of conviction it will be more suitable, compatible, have synergy, etc.

In my case this is definitely true. when i bought the SL IC initially and then the SL snaxo afterwards -- i didnt do any comparison with alternatives out there. Deleberately in fact -- because, to do this properly, i would have to try a few alternatives -- not just Naim and Chord. But now that i have bought into Naim anyhow, and its working very well in my case -- no timing or musicality issues here directly attributable to the cables, then i dont see any reason to change. But for those that did the comparison, of course i respect their conclusions as i didnt do any such comparison. It is just so surprising for a Naim cable to fail on something so fundamental such as timing -- but hey, what do i know. Peerhaps my SL and snaxo cables are neither musica nor timing that well and i just havent picked this up for some odd reason...

Hypothetically speaking; if the SL cables were not made by Naim - lets just for a moment say they were made by Roksan and they are called the Roksan Super Lumina,  then i would think very few people on this forum would have even heard of them, let alone bought one, or a set, and in such case the Chord Company cables may well have become a brand far more accepted in generally preference to replace with are time honoured old standard naim.

This made me smile, for a number of reasons :-) However, i suspect a sigificant number of naim systems out there also use other cables, even obscure ones. I dont know how much the SL cable is dominating amongst naim users compared to other cabls, eg Chord. Evidently, seems that preferences are split and there is not this default adoption of SL in preference to others. Good thing in my view. In my case though, any mixing and matching is simply out of the question -- unless of course the Naim cable simply didnt work in my system -- which definitely NOT the case.

I would also argue that the Super Sarum Aray cables retain and convey far more 'naim sound' than the Super Lumina which appear to be a step in a different direction from the usual Naim, obviously that direction is the Statement amp, and one has to decide if these statement amp cables really are the best cables for sound quality and price for lesser Naim products.

SSA more 'Naim' than SL? Interesting one... of course i dont know as i havent done the comparison. But i can say the SL cables that i have in my system today sound very Naim to me, whatever that means. Whether the SSA would sound 'more' Naim is hard for me to understand -- but of course again i dont know. Your point that SL may be more suited to Statement level level system is well taken -- but i have to say, i have heard the benefits in my somewhat humbler system -- and others have heard the benefits too, so perhaps compatibility is probably not an issue -- would be very strange to me if it were indeed an issue.

IMO it's essential to have an A/B demo, and to hear the differences before committing to purchase.

Yes, i definitely agree... evidently this is already happening -- except for lazy folks like me...

Debs

naim_nymph posted:

Hypothetically speaking; if the SL cables were not made by Naim - lets just for a moment say they were made by Roksan and they are called the Roksan Super Lumina,  then i would think very few people on this forum would have even heard of them, let alone bought one, or a set, and in such case the Chord Company cables may well have become a brand far more accepted in generally preference to replace with are time honoured old standard naim.

That comment may be more insightful than I can make it but -
isn't there a WHOLE world of 'SL cables which are NOT made by Naim '  but by Crystal, Nordost, MIT, Spectral, Transparent, Derek Smalls, Polonium Quantic Research, Vectoron Hyper-Gonad, Lambaste & Finchcombe, Tellurium Taupe,  and - Chord.

Just as Naim might be expected to gain some additional 'traction' from being Naim so Chord gets some historical traction from being the least adventurous demonstration of non-sheepery available.

If one is looking for the 'Best Cable in the World (for Naim)' then one might need to listen to more than one alternative.

Adam you forgot Vertere in the list ... 

I replaced my Hiline with a Chord Sarum Tuned Aray when SuperLumina was a mere twinkle in Naim's eye. Why? Because the Chord STA IC was simply better than the Hiline. I mean much better. Two years later, having discovered the wonders of the SL speaker cables (from a A/B comparison at home with SL and NACA5), I then did a lengthy A/B comparison (at home) between a Chord SSA and SL interconnect. I now own a SL interconnect for reasons I have already explained. I have not tried other brands due to a general unavailability for home demonstration and these days I am loathed to buy anything (Naim or a competitor) without a lengthy test in my own system. So no Naim sheepery or laziness in this household, particularly when spending so much on bits of wire

I don't understand why cables cause (and seem to have always caused) so much heated debate. To me it is mysterious why we have such differing opinions of a cable's performance and I hoped it might be possible to explore possible reasons for this. Instead we have people being defensive about their set-up, accusations of brand sheepery and the complete avoidance of 'competitor's' offerings (often for sound reasons).

Maybe I should accept it simply is not possible to discuss the relative worth of different cables on here without people becoming a little, let's say, entrenched. Very strange.

So - erm if I use the standard SNAICS and NACA 5, does it mean I am a Naim sheep.

or maybe a half sheep since I use a Hugo in my main rig and Dynaudio speakers 

analogmusic posted:

So - erm if I use the standard SNAICS and NACA 5, does it mean I am a Naim sheep.

or maybe a half sheep since I use a Hugo in my main rig and Dynaudio speakers 

I was not accusing you of Naim sheepery, simply that it has been used to 'explain' why some prefer SL.

Thanks Nigel, it was addressed to Mr Meredith's non-sheepery comment. Just joking anyway...

what is a 'naim sheep'? or if its easier to explain the opposite-- a non-naim sheep?

a bit of a digression i guess, but it may help us know what we are discussing here...

enjoy...

ken

Nigel, my reference to 'laziness' was in connection with how may alternatives you dem before deciding. in my view,  2 is just as 'lazy' and is not much of an advance on 1. but dont take this too seriously -- i just didnt want to 'lazy' all on my own 

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

what is a 'naim sheep'? or if its easier to explain the opposite-- a non-naim sheep?

a bit of a digression i guess, but it may help us know what we are discussing here...

enjoy...

ken

Naim sheep - a person with a single-minded devotion to the brand who will not, or is unable to, consider competitor brands. Will only buy Naim.

Just realised this is an imperfect definition because many of us who could be accused of being Naim Sheep own competitors' speakers. Anyway, you get my drift.

ken c posted:

Nigel, my reference to 'laziness' was in connection with how may alternatives you dem before deciding. in my view,  2 is just as 'lazy' and is not much of an advance on 1. but dont take this too seriously -- i just didnt want to 'lazy' all on my own 

enjoy

ken

Well I guess I am just lazy then. In fairness I demoed the Chord SSA, the SL and compared to my own Chord STA IC. So a massive 3 alternatives if I can include my own IC as sticking with what you have is a real alternative. Positively energetic!

Trouble is the (un)availability of competitor offerings for home demo. Just too risky to spend this kind of dough without checking with/in your own system.

I am pretty sure that the latest speaker cables from Polonium Quantic Research make last month's cables from Vectoron Hyper-Gonad sound broken. 

Question: does it make more sense to add SL speaker cable to a DR'ed NAP than a non-DR'ed NAP?  I keep thinking back to Chris West's post...

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...59#22544475914842659

I do feel that my non-DR'ed 300 and my 7M NACA5 run sound like they were made for each other. The high cost of upgrades aside, I am a bit concerned that DR'ing without also SL'ing may throw off my system's balance.

Thoughts welcomed and appreciated!

Hook

I hear you Hook, I thought the SL technologies was created to go hand and hand with the Statement. However, can be implemented with the 500 & Classic Series.

And after one has accomplished a Dred front and rear end,  follow up with the Full Loom.

The new evolving Naim Sound!

Quieter, more detailed

Better imaging and spacing, with that same punchy PRAT!

 Allante93!

tonym posted:

There really is no mystery here. Bearing in mind, those of us posting here are converts to the Naim sound, so the matter of personal preference has very little to do with it. So much of hi-fi forums are taken up by people trying to argue that what they've invested in is better than the alternatives, and if others don't happen have the same experience then it must be to do with defects in their equipment.

Every system is unique, and consequently behaves in different ways to any other. It's simple. Listen in your own system and don't be too swayed by others' opinions.

A great post

davidf posted:

tonym posted:

There really is no mystery here. Bearing in mind, those of us posting here are converts to the Naim sound, so the matter of personal preference has very little to do with it. So much of hi-fi forums are taken up by people trying to argue that what they've invested in is better than the alternatives, and if others don't happen have the same experience then it must be to do with defects in their equipment.

Every system is unique, and consequently behaves in different ways to any other. It's simple. Listen in your own system and don't be too swayed by others' opinions.

A great post

+2

I agree 110% 

1st, the Forum is a great marketing tool for Naim, 2nd the pecking order, my gear is better than yours, 3rd and most important of all, the Forum is informative!

In many instances, one can find individuals with the same gear, and situation, which can be helpful in decision making.

 Very well said, tonym!

Allante93!

Hook posted:

I am pretty sure that the latest speaker cables from Polonium Quantic Research make last month's cables from Vectoron Hyper-Gonad sound broken. 

Question: does it make more sense to add SL speaker cable to a DR'ed NAP than a non-DR'ed NAP?  I keep thinking back to Chris West's post...

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...59#22544475914842659

I do feel that my non-DR'ed 300 and my 7M NACA5 run sound like they were made for each other. The high cost of upgrades aside, I am a bit concerned that DR'ing without also SL'ing may throw off my system's balance.

Thoughts welcomed and appreciated!

Hook

 

Hi Hook,

i have just installed (day 6 of run-in) the SL interconnect ans speaker cables with very positive results. My system remains a DR free zone although I plan to upgrade my 300 later in the year as I bought it just before DR was introduced (although too early for any discount). The 555 and Supercap are both 2nd hand and won't be upgraded for a while yet. I didn't compare to Chord.

The cables were good enough to make my wife gasp!

Keith

Hook posted:

I am pretty sure that the latest speaker cables from Polonium Quantic Research make last month's cables from Vectoron Hyper-Gonad sound broken. 

Question: does it make more sense to add SL speaker cable to a DR'ed NAP than a non-DR'ed NAP?  I keep thinking back to Chris West's post...

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...59#22544475914842659

I do feel that my non-DR'ed 300 and my 7M NACA5 run sound like they were made for each other. The high cost of upgrades aside, I am a bit concerned that DR'ing without also SL'ing may throw off my system's balance.

Thoughts welcomed and appreciated!

Hook

 

Hi Hook

Like Keith (KRM) I first introduced SL cabling to my system before any of my black boxes moved to DR spec. I started with the speaker cable and interconnect when my amp was 282/SC/250.2.  I later added the SL XLR between SC and 250.2.  All the SL cables brought very significant benefit - bigger than a black box upgrade in my view.  Since adding the SL full loom I've added DR boxes as well, initially DRing my SuperCap, then replacing the 250.2 with a 300DR and more recently going 552DR and I'm awaiting the my 555PS to come back after its DR upgrade.  However I have no hesitation is commending the SL cables for a system without DR.  If you are able to borrow some for trial at home in your wonderful system I'm sure you would be wowed.

Mike 

Hi Mike,

My goodness, that's quite a system you have there now. When the 555 comes back you will be in a very good place

I've delayed the DR upgrades as I can't justify them too soon after cables, but hopefully one day. Amp, then Supercap, then 555.

It's good to hear I'm not the only non-DR convert to Super Lumina. Six days into burning in the cables, but music isdelayed while we catch up with Game of Thrones - last night was spent enjoying Spurs' coming up short

Keith

I went the other way and went from Hicap non DR to Supercap DR and then simultaneously 250.2 to 250DR and SL speaker cables at the same time although I listened to the 250DR before the SL speaker cables. Then more recently SL interconnect replaced my Chord Tuned Aray.

I am not sure if there is an optimal order i.e. DR'ing or SL'ing first, and which components to DR first and which SL leads to introduce first but I firmly believe they benefit from each other or to use a well-worn phrase there is synergy between DR and SL upgrades. Take your time but I would urge you to have both DR and SL upgrades in due course, they will transform your system (IMHO).

Do try some individual DR and SL upgrades at home if you can and it might give you a feel for the best order for you and your system.

I don't know whether or not 'DRing' should be a greater priority than 'SLing' but since a few contributors in this thread seem to be querying whether or not SL works effectively in a non-DR'd system, I would add my experience of a system where the only DR component is the 555 on the NDS and the only SL component (so far ��) is the interconnect, the effect has been utterly transformational. The biggest musical improvement that can be made for anything like this money imho.

Im sure SL weaves even more magic in a full DR system, but it sure does plenty in non-DR too.

Referring to my earlier post, Kevin, did you have the opportunity to listen to any alternatives or did you only listen to SL?

Dave, guilty so far of only SL'ing, partly because my dealer (who also represents Chord) doesn't carry SA because he doesn't think he can sell it. Maybe that says a lot but I have contacted the good doctor at Chord and will endeavour to either pressgang my man into getting in the demo set that chord have or asking someone else to do so. I have to say though that SL sounding so darn good has slightly arrested the process..

See, I just don't understand these diametrically opposed views on SL vs Chord SSA cables. Undoubtedly they are both excellent cables, and having owned (and demoed at home) both I can personally vouch for this. Yes I now own SL but to say that SL cables kill the music just doesn't sound.....err.....'balanced' to me. And to excuse the comparative 'failure' of SL cables by some by saying that all systems are unique and that some (predominently Naim) systems don't suit SL cables doesn't sound...err...balanced either. This is definitely a story of pros and cons when it comes to SL vs SSA with no absolute winners or losers IMHO.

But...SL cables have been a revelation in my (predominantly Naim) system and far from killing, they have absolutely brought the music to life! I appreciated the many virtues of the SSA but I loved the musicality (sorry I could not come up with a better descritor) of the SL cables (interconnect and speaker cables so far).

What is going on here?

Its only forum talk Nigel, don't get too concerned. My new CDP makes my old one sound broken, differences were night and day etc.

Just as long as the SL cables do it for you then nothing else matters.