Why Naim's failure to update firmware actually does matter....

It would be a mistake to conclude that Naim are not going to update their firmware for the streamers in a way that improves Tidal performance.  Just when such will be publicly released . . . I have no idea.  I can certainly understand the frustration.

As one of the Beta testers I am aware that sorting out these issues is more complex than it might appear and the latest firmware is therefore taking considerably longer than anticipated. Naim are acutely aware of customer requirements - we are not reticent in letting them know - and I would have no qualms about their commitment. It is frustrating, but better that it take longer and be done right. 

Yes, fishy one, but there's 'considerably longer than anticipated' and there's 'this is getting bloody ridiculous'. I think that line was crossed a while ago. It's the lack of communications that's most frustrating - it would really help if someone at Naim would contribute a bit more often in these forums.

+1 for HH comments.   The testing has gone very well & as far as we can tell its been pretty well done & dusted for a while.  But we don't know anything about the commercial & political issues that these things include,   & not forgetting the other issues wrt Tidal  ............

Good to hear that, Mike-B. What other issues wrt Tidal?

What issues with Tidal ??  ............  read the news ???   None of the streaming services are making money,  some maybe staying afloat or maybe pumping like crazy on the floatation devices.   ............   but as they say on Dragons Den  ........ I'm OUT 

Mike

It's precisely because streaming companies may come and go that I would prefer a more flexible solution. The trouble with where Naim are is that adding a new streaming company seems to involve a heavy investment in Naim's manpower and time - and the company might go under, wasting Naim's effort. Perhaps there's a better way?

I am one who looked forward to the new firmware since before Christmas.. But have given up asking for updates.. Tidal is still problematic at times and there were talks about fixing it at on the streamer side, this silence is over promise under delivered from naim. 

Goon525 posted:

It's precisely because streaming companies may come and go that I would prefer a more flexible solution. The trouble with where Naim are is that adding a new streaming company seems to involve a heavy investment in Naim's manpower and time - and the company might go under, wasting Naim's effort. Perhaps there's a better way?

I expect a period of a few years for the marketplace to go through the evolution process.  Then the marketplace will probably evolve into less company's & they will probably be the mega--size corporations such as Apple/iTunes, Amazon etc.  as I suspect it will only be such company's that have the wherewithal to set up & handle the required portfolio including the royalties & to be able to make it a worthwhile investment based on global sales in the long term.   Will they provide genuine hifi ??  I doubt it as most users think MP3 is good enough so I doubt the market exists to make anything better than 16/44 worthwhile.    As to a better way,  it could be a 3rd party that provides the bespoke links into these mega music portfolio's & provides web design & set up & whatever licence agreements on behalf of company's like Naim, Linn & other services such as  www, TV & even local radio.   

Naim are late adopters in most things and not just software.  For example CD players, racks, interconnects, power leads. However Naim do tend too produce good solutions most of the time.

Paul

Goon525 posted:

Mike

It's precisely because streaming companies may come and go that I would prefer a more flexible solution. The trouble with where Naim are is that adding a new streaming company seems to involve a heavy investment in Naim's manpower and time - and the company might go under, wasting Naim's effort. Perhaps there's a better way?

If you want more flexibility, then maybe move to a system with a PC or a Mac as a front end?  It's always going to take longer to integrate a new streaming service into a proprietary platform such as the SU.

I understand that Naim might find it difficult to discuss the reasons for the delay in the Tidal firmware update, particularly if the reasons are political or commercially sensitive. It is unfortunate however that late last year there was quite a bit of forum updating going on from Tony about the imminent Tidal FW release which had us on the edge of our seats. There was even some positive noises from the Beta team about potential improvements in Tidal streaming SQ that might come also with the FW update. Unfortunately since the end of last year there has been almost complete silence from Naim on this topic, even after several polite requests on here for an update, followed by the inevitable raft of Tidal cancellations by those frustrated with Tidal dropouts.

It is possibly telling that some of those who appear to be satisfied with progress are in fact Beta testers. I suspect they might know something us mere mortals don't know that would explain the delay and the complete silence from Naim over this issue.

I am lucky that (now) I don't tend to suffer with dropouts and absolutely love Tidal. The SQ ain't bad either. I am discovering many new (to me) artists and many unheard albums from familiar artists. In fact a significant proportion of my listening time these days is via Tidal. So my interest is purely about the longevity and survival of Tidal and the hope that SQ can be further enhanced. That is of course assuming Naim's higher SQ streaming partner continues to be Tidal!

Having read my above post (too late to edit it), I realise that the middle paragraph appears to suggest that Beta testers might be hiding something. Of course Beta testers are often sworn to secrecy over technical issues and may well be unaware of other commercial or political issues causing the delay and silence from Naim re the FW update, or indeed their future partners in streaming.

HH and MIKE-B I totally accept what you both state in your first posts on here. I did not intend to doubt anybody's word.

It would help us all if Naim could simply say something on the subject.

I agree with the sentiments. It takes long and the options offered are conservative, much more conservative than needed given the focus of Naim on delivering quality.

Another thing which comes as additional topic into the game that still updating the firmware on normal streamers requires support of dealers, this is inefficient and prone to delays.

I hope these kind of posts will shift the focus and will ensure that we get soon all the good stuff, good working Tidal, Qobuz integration, other DSD version, update over air.......

I still dream....

Also as a beta tester and some times other build tester, I believe there are a few candidate builds of firmware right now.. Naim have wanted to improve the data timing and efficiency  in the TCP/IP stacks so as to work more consistently with web lossless streaming, web radio and local home streaming under varying network latency conditions. In addition because of the combined and close proximity of the DSP/DAC to the network streaming components in the streamer products such changes affect the overall SQ .. and as we know Naim has SQ as one of its highest, if not the highest priority, and therefore any firmware candidates for a given set of functionality and technical performance will be tested for SQ to ensure the Naim characteristics such as conveying musical emotion are maintained... This interestingly can affect off board DACs connected to streamers as well... It is this SQ testing that appears to take some time  ... But am confident when the SQ matches the Naim standard for the required operational conditions the firmware will be released.

This sort of code efficiency optimisation was used to in the recent DAC firmwares which was genereally positively received in terms of SQ.

Simon

Is there any word on ROON being included in any forthcoming firmware upgrades?

I currently use it in my office on a Mac via KEF Egg speakers and love it.

The software functionality and information it provides creates a totally new listening experience which would be wonderful on naim streamers.

nigelb posted:

Having read my above post (too late to edit it), I realise that the middle paragraph appears to suggest that Beta testers might be hiding something. Of course Beta testers are often sworn to secrecy over technical issues and may well be unaware of other commercial or political issues causing the delay and silence from Naim re the FW update, or indeed their future partners in streaming.

HH and MIKE-B I totally accept what you both state in your first posts on here. I did not intend to doubt anybody's word.

It would help us all if Naim could simply say something on the subject.

Nigel, yes, we have agreed to keep schtum, for example we were using Tital and the BBC HLS streams for many weeks before they were released, but just had to ignore all requests for leaks. 

I am completely non technical, so don't really understand the complications that Naim face but have gained more of an understanding through the Beta work - there are lots of streamers, all sorts of Internet and network issues, not to mention multiroom to contend with. During the testing, unexpected things have gone wrong at various points, and getting them fixed can take a long time. It's not just testing the new features and improvements of course - one of the key things is regression testing - making sure that changes do not impact negatively on existing functionality. So it all takes time, and I can quite understand why it looks as if everyone is sitting on their hands. All I can say is that that is not the case. 

Simon, HH, Thanks for the update and that all sounds perfectly reasonable and very good reasons for the delay. As the delays appear to be caused by unexpected technical problems and the complete focus on optimising SQ, it would have been sensible for Naim to tell us so. This would put minds at rest, reaffirm our faith in Naim to get the best technical development/SQ from the FW update, possibly stem the tide() of Tidal defectors and stop (T)idle speculation (such as mine ).

At the end of the day good customer relations is about three things, communication, communication, communication. 

I spent 40 years in software development at various levels from coding, testing, designing and managing and I'm glad to have retired from that 'scene'.   There is one lesson to be learned that not all users of technology grasp, however, and that is that once your organisation has dipped its toe into the comuting technology pond, it becomes essential that you henceforth regard that discipline as an equally important partner to your original core business.  So, for example, a retailer who adopts computer automation needs to start to regard himself as both a retailer and a technology business and make appropriate investment in both aspects.  'Appropriate investment' means not only hardware but also people... software experts in fact, designers, coders & testers.   I faced many struggles to get this message accross... my worst nightmare was the view of a manufacturing director for an international household name company that "we don't need computers to run our manufacturing, thankyou, we've done it for hundred years without."  He retired a couple of years later.

My point is this... most, if not all, of the kit we enjoy is driven by software which plays just as important a part as the audio components, if indeed they can be separated.  Naim is transitioning from its roots in audio design to software design... and we have to believe in their ability to manage this process 'in flight'.  So far they seem to be doing pretty well, but don't lets any of us underestimate the challenges they face.  I for one would not want the job of software designer in this environment, let alone the job of managing the coding and testing.   The one thing that used to make my job bearable was to have some understanding users... we, on this forum, are all users... let's be even more understanding.    

I think we have been understanding. It would just help if we understood what we are being understanding about....if you understand me. 

Understood NigelB.

Flummoxed posted:

Is there any word on ROON being included in any forthcoming firmware upgrades?

I currently use it in my office on a Mac via KEF Egg speakers and love it.

The software functionality and information it provides creates a totally new listening experience which would be wonderful on naim streamers.

 

 

According to Roon's website the Muso is a approved tested player. Maybe Naim streamers will be in the mix in the future.

Flummoxed posted:

Is there any word on ROON being included in any forthcoming firmware upgrades?

I currently use it in my office on a Mac via KEF Egg speakers and love it.

The software functionality and information it provides creates a totally new listening experience which would be wonderful on naim streamers.

Not quite. It provides a very rich metadata experience but does not improve the listening. I trialled it, then again with MQPlayer but found neither as musically interesting as Audirvana +, which is close but still not as good as the listening experience I get from the UnitiServe. Naim has always been about engagement with the music. Why compromise that just to add new features ?

rjstaines posted:

...There is one lesson to be learned that not all users of technology grasp, however, and that is that once your organisation has dipped its toe into the computing technology pond, it becomes essential that you henceforth regard that discipline as an equally important partner to your original core business.  So, for example, a retailer who adopts computer automation needs to start to regard himself as both a retailer and a technology business and make appropriate investment in both aspects.  'Appropriate investment' means not only hardware but also people... software experts in fact, designers, coders & testers.   I faced many struggles to get this message across...  

Amen to that. Same applies to distribution partners, as well - there are no shortcuts. Get out of the business if you're scared of change.

Hungryhalibut posted

 

I am completely non technical, so don't really understand the complications that Naim face but have gained more of an understanding through the Beta work - there are lots of streamers, all sorts of Internet and network issues, not to mention multiroom to contend with. During the testing, unexpected things have gone wrong at various points, and getting them fixed can take a long time. It's not just testing the new features and improvements of course - one of the key things is regression testing - making sure that changes do not impact negatively on existing functionality. So it all takes time, and I can quite understand why it looks as if everyone is sitting on their hands. All I can say is that that is not the case. 

Sorry to come late to this. I am also a beta tester and I recall the long slog while TJ and his colleagues sorted out what manifested itself as n-serve for IOS crashing on waking up. To me as a user this seemed like one problem, but as various betas and a production release went by, the crashes continued, unreliably. From reading the notes with the betas, they were fixing multiple different causes for this one issue and it took a long time for them to find every last cause (but they got there in the end, as far as my crashes are concerned). Knowing when to go public and put what you have out there is difficult to judge, as illustrated by even Apple with all its resources being unable to release a small update without following up with bug fixes a few days or weeks later. I think Naim do pretty well by us customers, taking everything into account.

best

David