Why Naim's failure to update firmware actually does matter....

Naim has a solid reputation when it comes to the quality (durability) of their products and the sound quality of their systems. They have been around for a long time, so they must be doing something good and consistently good.

In the crowded market for high quality audio reproduction it is hard to get track and survive.

However, being able to to survive means you have to meet your customer demands. These days, customers expect open and timely communication and a certain speed of delivery of new features. When it comes to delivering audio to your home and the way (and places) we consume audio, things are changing rapidly. It took some time to get here, digital delivery of audio and streaming audio had taken some time. Or rather, it has taken the market some time to adept to the changes.

Naim has been on board quite early. It is not that they are blind and stuck in the past. On the contrary. But we complain about the speed of delivery due to a lack of communication. Managing expectations is hard, you can never satisfy anyone. Given the crowded market Naim competes in, I do understand they are not willing to have a public roadmap of upcoming products and features. But if you want to avoid your customers to jump ship out of sheer frustration, a bit more regular communication is appreciated. It probably will keep your loyal customers, even if it does not change anything about the timeline of actual delivery. 

Flummoxed posted:

Thanks for the response.

I think the Pi is a little beyond me and could cause some serious "pulling out of the hair!" so SBT would appear to be the way to go.

How do you find the SQ from Roon via SBT compared to UPnP?

Thanks

 

 

 

Following on from my previous post, it occurred to me that I can instal Roon Bridge on my MacBook Pro and take the optical out into the 272. Bingo I have Roon.

At this point it's too early to decide on the SQ front but so far it sounds all but the same.

I love the Roon interface hence my efforts to get it into my Naim system. However top of the likes list is the Radio feature. I started with Arne Domnerus which was followed by Stan Getz and now Sonny Rollins. Great Sunday morning listening with the Times wondering what's coming next? 

I doubt the MacBook Pro is an ideal solution as rather electricly noisey I suspect. But as an intermim no cost solution until Naim make their streamers Roon ready, it's a great alternative to UPnP and the Naim app.

Oh now some Miles Davies )

Flummoxed posted:

Flummoxed posted:

Thanks for the response.

I think the Pi is a little beyond me and could cause some serious "pulling out of the hair!" so SBT would appear to be the way to go.

How do you find the SQ from Roon via SBT compared to UPnP?

Thanks

 

 

 

Following on from my previous post, it occurred to me that I can instal Roon Bridge on my MacBook Pro and take the optical out into the 272. Bingo I have Roon.

At this point it's too early to decide on the SQ front but so far it sounds all but the same.

I love the Roon interface hence my efforts to get it into my Naim system. However top of the likes list is the Radio feature. I started with Arne Domnerus which was followed by Stan Getz and now Sonny Rollins. Great Sunday morning listening with the Times wondering what's coming next? 

I doubt the MacBook Pro is an ideal solution as rather electricly noisey I suspect. But as an intermim no cost solution until Naim make their streamers Roon ready, it's a great alternative to UPnP and the Naim app.

Oh now some Miles Davies )

That's great news, not being a mac man I presumed your Mac was static. 

There are plenty here using optical out of a Mac with good results. If you want to at a later stage improve (or most likely just change) sound quality you could try HQ player. 

The "Radio" feature as it's  called is on the roadmap for an upgrade (Roon gives this information but not definitive timelines) so it will become even better. Sometimes it can seem to choose some albums too frequently, unfavouriting these albums (hitting the heart twice) stops this issue. 

SJB

Sloop John B posted:

Flummoxed posted:

Flummoxed posted:

Thanks for the response.

I think the Pi is a little beyond me and could cause some serious "pulling out of the hair!" so SBT would appear to be the way to go.

How do you find the SQ from Roon via SBT compared to UPnP?

Thanks

 

 

 

Following on from my previous post, it occurred to me that I can instal Roon Bridge on my MacBook Pro and take the optical out into the 272. Bingo I have Roon.

At this point it's too early to decide on the SQ front but so far it sounds all but the same.

I love the Roon interface hence my efforts to get it into my Naim system. However top of the likes list is the Radio feature. I started with Arne Domnerus which was followed by Stan Getz and now Sonny Rollins. Great Sunday morning listening with the Times wondering what's coming next? 

I doubt the MacBook Pro is an ideal solution as rather electricly noisey I suspect. But as an intermim no cost solution until Naim make their streamers Roon ready, it's a great alternative to UPnP and the Naim app.

Oh now some Miles Davies )

That's great news, not being a mac man I presumed your Mac was static. 

There are plenty here using optical out of a Mac with good results. If you want to at a later stage improve (or most likely just change) sound quality you could try HQ player. 

The "Radio" feature as it's  called is on the roadmap for an upgrade (Roon gives this information but not definitive timelines) so it will become even better. Sometimes it can seem to choose some albums too frequently, unfavouriting these albums (hitting the heart twice) stops this issue. 

 

 

SJB

The Muso products are Roon compatible. Waiting on the others?

M

To your point - the Muso products are "Roon Tested AirPlay devices", compatible with Roon by dint of their Apple MFi/AirPlay support, not by explicit providing "Roon Ready" hardware compatibility.

Adding proper AirPlay compatibility to the ND* and Uniti family would partially take care of this, albeit subject to the performance constraints of AirPlay itself.

I've been doing some fairly intensive (though subjective) comparisons of Roon using the optical out of my MacPro Pro vs the Naim App and MinimServer using a wired Ethernet connection.  Especially on high res albums, UPnP definitely has the edge and I've gone back to the Naim app/MinimServer for most of my listening on the SU.  I've decided not to continue with Roon for the moment but may well return if the SU becomes Roon Ready, or I miss the Roon user experience too much.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

David, well the DSP processor that Naim use is a set of programmable instructions held in a Super Harvard Architecture device.. as it is programmable as opposed to being a fixed ASIC like the DSPs built into DAC chips - it is already FPGA class. So I would categorise it is as an SoC (System on Chip) class FPGA - which is a form of specialist micro controller...

Therefore the FPGA argument is moot as effectively Naim are already there from what I can see... its more about using new SoC technology and FPGA devices that consume far less power for the given processing output. Power consumed creates noise and system crosstalk. I suggest it is the effects of this crosstalk we hear when we hear the benefits or otherwise of different firmware and hardware execution. Therefore less crosstalk is better decoupling - my second point.

Simon

 

Apologies in advance Simon, but I cannot resist wondering whether you are 'Doctor' Stanley Unwin's long lost son? 

Anyway, why all the focus on DSP? If my understanding of the idiot's guide to DSP is correct:

"To illustrate this concept, the diagram below shows how a DSP is used in an MP3 audio player. During the recording phase, analog audio is input through a receiver or other source. This analog signal is then converted to a digital signal by an analog-to-digital converter and passed to the DSP. The DSP performs the MP3 encoding and saves the file to memory. During the playback phase, the file is taken from memory, decoded by the DSP and then converted back to an analog signal through the digital-to-analog converter so it can be output through the speaker system. In a more complex example, the DSP would perform other functions such as volume control, equalization and user interface."

If I am thinking straight, mind I might be completely wrong, the DSP aspect is used in encoding the converted analog to digital signal into a package which is ultimately presented to the digital to analog converter, or DAC. Allegedly, this process is very simple for a DSP. As we all know, DACs are not all the same as they literally translate the digital signals into analog sounds with different DACs reproducing different sounds. As long as there is no corruption to the signal presented to the DAC, and I conjecture that your ears would easily know this, then the DAC is where the programming 'magic' occurs. Signal or electrical interference to the output media  can still interfere with the sound but that has nothing to to with the DSP or DAC. 

Andarkian, I don't believe I am the professor's son, but I will Carry on Regardless 

To your point, DSP is used to digitally process a signal... and your example of MP3 encoding and decoding is indeed an example of DSP.

Now with regard to DSP as referred to by this thread.... the process of digital to analogue processing requires the digital data to be prepared by processing it in a particular way so as to reduce the unintended artefacts or noise from the physical analogue signal construction process. This process can never be perfect.. But the DSP here can help make this construction process be more accurate and become closer to perfection.

Most DAC chips have the DSP built in, as most if not all DACs will need to have the digital data processed in one way or another so as to physically construct an analogue signal from it. However Naim on their DAC and Streamers at least have decided to sidestep the inbuilt DAC chip DSP and use their own instead, as they believe they can do it better for best SQ.

Therefore this DSP processing and how it is performed becomes quite instrumental in creating the Naim sound and performance of many of their digital products.. 

Hopefully that makes sense....

ChrisByrd posted:

I've been doing some fairly intensive (though subjective) comparisons of Roon using the optical out of my MacPro Pro vs the Naim App and MinimServer using a wired Ethernet connection.  Especially on high res albums, UPnP definitely has the edge and I've gone back to the Naim app/MinimServer for most of my listening on the SU.  I've decided not to continue with Roon for the moment but may well return if the SU becomes Roon Ready, or I miss the Roon user experience too much.

I suppose it's not too strange that what the SU is optimised for, is, well, optimal. 

SJB

Sloop John B posted:

Flummoxed posted:

Flummoxed posted:

Thanks for the response.

I think the Pi is a little beyond me and could cause some serious "pulling out of the hair!" so SBT would appear to be the way to go.

How do you find the SQ from Roon via SBT compared to UPnP?

Thanks

 

 

 

Following on from my previous post, it occurred to me that I can instal Roon Bridge on my MacBook Pro and take the optical out into the 272. Bingo I have Roon.

At this point it's too early to decide on the SQ front but so far it sounds all but the same.

I love the Roon interface hence my efforts to get it into my Naim system. However top of the likes list is the Radio feature. I started with Arne Domnerus which was followed by Stan Getz and now Sonny Rollins. Great Sunday morning listening with the Times wondering what's coming next? 

I doubt the MacBook Pro is an ideal solution as rather electricly noisey I suspect. But as an intermim no cost solution until Naim make their streamers Roon ready, it's a great alternative to UPnP and the Naim app.

Oh now some Miles Davies )

That's great news, not being a mac man I presumed your Mac was static. 

There are plenty here using optical out of a Mac with good results. If you want to at a later stage improve (or most likely just change) sound quality you could try HQ player. 

The "Radio" feature as it's  called is on the roadmap for an upgrade (Roon gives this information but not definitive timelines) so it will become even better. Sometimes it can seem to choose some albums too frequently, unfavouriting these albums (hitting the heart twice) stops this issue. 

 

 

SJB

Currently I'm using a 2m el cheapo fibre optical cable from my MacBook to 272 but would rather get the MacBook out of the room.

The alternative is running a 12m cable to my iMac where the Roon Core sits but I'm concerned the cable length would have a detrimental effect. I'm planning on using an Audio Quest Forrest. 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Currently I'm using a 2m el cheapo fibre optical cable from my MacBook to 272 but would rather get the MacBook out of the room.

The alternative is running a 12m cable to my iMac where the Roon Core sits but I'm concerned the cable length would have a detrimental effect. I'm planning on using an Audio Quest Forrest. 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

I've run long lengths (10m) of optical without any problems.  You won't be able to tell the difference between 2m and 12m.  Also, if you're worried about electrical noise from your MacBook then 2m of optical cable will provide excellent electrical isolation.   The one drawback is that optical is usually limited to 24/96 resolution, so you won't be able to play ultra high-res music i.e. 24/192.  Having said that, there's not that much content available at 24/192 anyway.

Thanks for that NOOGLE, really helpful!

Flummoxed posted:

Currently I'm using a 2m el cheapo fibre optical cable from my MacBook to 272 but would rather get the MacBook out of the room.

The alternative is running a 12m cable to my iMac where the Roon Core sits but I'm concerned the cable length would have a detrimental effect. I'm planning on using an Audio Quest Forrest. 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Just to be clear, when you say fibre optic, I presume you mean Toslink, straight from Mac to 272 digital input? If so, my understanding is that performance drops off above 10m, or even 5m, so it might not work for you. On the other hand, either fibre optic or copper Ethernet LAN cabling will have no problem coping with 12m. 

Like other contributors I have more than 40 years experience in IT and software development. Whilst I am sure there are many good reasons for delaying software releases at Naim, it doesn't help their case.  At their level in the market software has to be excellent in features and quality, and delivered in a timely manner.  For example , the  control app I use on the Muso has some fairly basic and irritating errors with Tidal integration, which has nothing to do with sound quality and should never have been overlooked. Also, their level of communication  does not harmonise well with a reputation for superb customer service. If this is due to uncertainty about when a software product will be ready, as suggested by some posts, then there are underlying problems in the development life cycle that need to be addressed. Those of us who love Naim products for the enjoyment that they have given us over the years will not be the arbiters of their success in the future. As Naim's market grows along with integration of software with its products, so will customer expectations concerning quality. This post is not intended as a criticism of the hard working engineers and developers, rather a plea to Naim to invest in its software engineering capability and processes!

I am sure Naim invest in its software developers, but this is more I suspect about digital and electronic system engineering rather than software..I believe Naim albeit at a significantly elevated complexity level, might be grappling with some of the issues I bumped into in my final year undergraduate electronic digital systems engineering project. They have my sympathy, but am also a little envious not to be stuck into such an enthralling project like that again.

I guess a few of you Naim owners are also in possession of a television and or AV equipment. The advances in recent years has meant that television production is in the hands of two or three major manufacturers, such as Samsung and LG, similarly with AV gear by the likes of Sony, Onkyo or Pioneer to name but three. The existential lifespan of a TV or AV amp is relatively short  with software and firmware also having limited support life cycles. Jeez, my iPhone 4 stopped getting updates several years ago.

What has this got to do with Naim? Well, admirably Naim provides support of its quite broad range of products for many years and this is reflected in the price of the product. When that product can be fixed or upgraded by a relatively inexperienced assembly line operator working with limited guidance, then it is not much of a problem. However, when you start incorporating rather tricky software development across your product offerings you soon run into a very expensive and unpredictable maintenance problem. If you cannot simply bolt in the software needed to support cross compliance with both internal and external features incorporated in your product range then there is a huge catch up issue to modernise legacy products as well as competing demands to produce future products. With something as simple as an IR controller or a control App supporting, say, Tidal or Spotify competing for software development resources alongside the product interfaces across a broad and aging product range then the scale of the potential problem becomes clear. 

LG, Samsung, Pioneer through price, product redundancy and technological evolution limit the software development to most current product ranges expecting their customers to simply replace the item when it breaks or no longer delivers desired output. Sony or Samsung would laugh at you if you wanted your ten year old CRT based TV fixed or you thought that your five year old LED machine should be getting a firmware update. For Naim, the issue is breadth of product range, timescale and cost of software development to an acceptable standard. 

As these issues fill much of this forum I suspect I am not wrong.

To your point  regarding the perception that the major appliance manufacturers continue to cast their products with a limited software / firmware lifecycle - I can't say that I agree with this:

1. White goods manufacturers are spending more developer hours on re-usable SDKs for their own products, especially in areas where on-device app revenue provides for them a cut of the profits (e.g., Pandora on a smart refrigerator, in the most obscure case).
2. Security updates are required on a much more frequent basis–in the case of devices which run Android or Tizen, this becomes even more so a survival requirement. These updates are typically distributed over-the-wire, on a semi-frequent rolling basis; my son's LG smart TV, for example, has had three such updates within the span of the last month or so.
3. Voice recognition has upped the ante for feature support, which requires a larger developer team to keep up with products such as Amazon Echo, etc. Samsung, for example, is on a hiring spree at the moment to shore up its dev team in this very area.

To these ends, it is no longer the case that a product is placed into the market, given a feature / fix update, then cast to the wolves. For products within the specialty channel, at 2x - 5x (or more) the purchase price, the expectations are even higher, given the investment in the brand.

Seven years is no longer an unreasonable expectation for software support, in many cases constrained by the hardware resources of the product as it was originally released. (I am definitely a big proponent of in-house designed hardware and software, rather than bought-in modules and expertise, though there is a vanishing point beyond which reliance upon third party vendors simply makes sense for a small company.)

This is why IMHO it is most important to address engineering issues regarding the power supply noise burden imposed by a more powerful (and possibly more generic) applications processor - this may in fact be the only way to insure that a product can be maintained to customer expectations, while providing for the delivery of new products and services (see #1 above) with the possibility of (incremental) recurring monthly revenue.

David,

Don't think  am iin disagreement with all of what you say. Samsung do provide modular upgrades to their televisions, though am not sure how many customers avail themselves of this feature given the pace of development in the television environment. Anyway, as a little experiment I thought I would connect my 4 year old, £2,500 at the time, Samsung television to the Internet and avail myself of any available software / firmware version updates, of which there are none. However, this is a Smart TV and therefore has its own Smart Hub interface to the Internet which, if I am not wrong (I don't own a Samsung phone), is allied to Samsung's own app interface. That, of course, needed updating today as it upgraded or deleted applications. This has all the applications  you would expect  on an iPad or iPhone such as Netflix or BBC iPlayer or Google maps or Facebook. However, the base firmware of the television is no longer being upgraded.

So, in effect, my hardware is no longer upgradable but can still access and use most of the Internet enabled applications, rather like my iPhone 4. Like Apple, this is 'easily' maintainable across their product range as long as the interface to the Internet continues to be supported.

You highlight a number of areas such as voice recognition which might be attractive for any number of reasons to a small company where the development costs could be very prohibitive.  However, when a small company starts to develop bespoke internal software for individual products a la Naim with the intention of it being maintained over a protracted lifespan that too can be a very dangerous game.  When Naim have to develop, test, upgrade and distribute different packages for a Muso, a Superuniti a NAP 250, 300, 500 right up to a Statement then you can perhaps see he life can become very complicated unless everything has been completely harmonised. I bet it hasn't! So, when you start messing at the DAC and DSP level and God knows where else, life can become very, very messy, expensive and difficult to control. 

Unsurprisingly, I worked on ERPs (Enterprise Resource Packages) for medium sized multinational companies. I make no pretence at understanding software engineering at the device level, but I certainly know what a million lines of spaghetti code looks like, costs to maintain and upgrade, no matter how 'harmonised' the package is supposed to be. Didn't TIeffenbaum, the Linn guy, in a moment of hubris decide to write his own ERP as no-one could do it better than Linn? He blew the trumpet to start the project, but never heard how it finished and how many got fired before they bought a package. 

Interesting that you bring up Linn, who has (under the guise of OpenHome) largely written a complete stack for streaming media that they now license to third-party manufacturers - so it is possible to internalize the process, provided that you are willing to absorb some of the bumps as they arise. I have lots of respect for what they've been able to put together along the way, even if I don't always agree with some of the choices....

Voice recognition is largely an integration exercise; there is absolutely no need to roll your own frameworks. Other specialist manufacturers are already doing this presently, and, to your point–a good DevOps foundation is definitely required.

Yes, absolutely agree. Interestingly, I had a quick look Linn's product range recently, just out of curiosity. The gear looks absolutely lovely but the prices seem to be even higher than Naim's. I haven't even read or seen a proper critique of their products. Anyone here a fan of their streaming products? 

Big fan here.

Songcast ("party mode") is great, works even at high resolution, there is also a virtual sound card driver for Mac and Windows by the same name, which allows to songcast the sound of your Mac/Windows to a DS, Qobuz/Tidal support in the streamer, updates over the network (no USB cable or RS232 involved), several software updates per year, had only one update problem in 7 years, Space Optimization helps to remove bass modes from the room (enormous improvement of sound), current software is still compatible even with the oldest Linn DS ever produced (Klimax DS 2007), support for 24/192 right from the beginning for all DS models, all software features are available for all DS/DSM models without further fees, OpenHome SDK allows you to program your own control point apps, renderers and other things, and according to the German Audio magazine the top model Klimax DS has constantly been the best sounding audio streamer for the last 8 years now.

jfritzen posted:

Big fan here.

Songcast ("party mode") is great, works even at high resolution, there is also a virtual sound card driver for Mac and Windows by the same name, which allows to songcast the sound of your Mac/Windows to a DS, Qobuz/Tidal support in the streamer, updates over the network (no USB cable or RS232 involved), several software updates per year, had only one update problem in 7 years, Space Optimization helps to remove bass modes from the room (enormous improvement of sound), current software is still compatible even with the oldest Linn DS ever produced (Klimax DS 2007), support for 24/192 right from the beginning for all DS models, all software features are available for all DS/DSM models without further fees, OpenHome SDK allows you to program your own control point apps, renderers and other things, and according to the German Audio magazine the top model Klimax DS has constantly been the best sounding audio streamer for the last 8 years now.

 

Other than that...it's pure rubbish.

JUST KIDDING.  That's an impressive list of attributes.  

Only one nit to pick; I prefer aluminum to clamshell.  "Machined-from-solid clamshell enclosure."  Does it smell like the North Sea?

Well, it won't smell of the North Sea as they are a bunch of West Coast Weegies! 

Bart posted:

jfritzen posted:

Big fan here.

Songcast ("party mode") is great, works even at high resolution, there is also a virtual sound card driver for Mac and Windows by the same name, which allows to songcast the sound of your Mac/Windows to a DS, Qobuz/Tidal support in the streamer, updates over the network (no USB cable or RS232 involved), several software updates per year, had only one update problem in 7 years, Space Optimization helps to remove bass modes from the room (enormous improvement of sound), current software is still compatible even with the oldest Linn DS ever produced (Klimax DS 2007), support for 24/192 right from the beginning for all DS models, all software features are available for all DS/DSM models without further fees, OpenHome SDK allows you to program your own control point apps, renderers and other things, and according to the German Audio magazine the top model Klimax DS has constantly been the best sounding audio streamer for the last 8 years now.

 

Other than that...it's pure rubbish.

JUST KIDDING.  That's an impressive list of attributes.  

Only one nit to pick; I prefer aluminum to clamshell.  "Machined-from-solid clamshell enclosure."  Does it smell like the North Sea?

Ah well, I almost regret that I posted. Never be enthusiastic on a forum, sorry for that.

But seriously, the Linn DSs are excellent devices IMO and worth a listen if you can.

I'm glad you posted, and Im sure it would be interesting to hear what the Klimax DS does in my home vs NDS/555DR.  I'm not really interested in online streaming, but Space Optimization is something I'd really like to hear.