small room

I don't think another shoebox like the DAC-V1 is going to be in the same league as a 72/HiCap (assuming it is recently serviced). Similarly a 180 is more than just power. A move down to a NAP100 or in fact anything less than a 200 is going to dissapoint.

I would get a new 272 streaming pre to replace the 72/HC. That reduces box count by 1. Then I would slowly rip the CD collection and once that is out of the way and you are comfortable streaming, Confine the CD collection to the loft and sell the CD3.5/FC. Then you will have gone fron 5 boxes to 2 and made the room more spacious by getting shot of the CDs and a 272 would also be a nice upgrade over the 3.5.

Speakers, well only you can decide with your ears. A rear ported speaker is going to give you a pain in the ass to get sounding right in a small room. Front ported like PMC Twenty.21 may be the way to go. I say this as an example only since speakers are so personal I don't see the point in recommendation. But my feeling is a 272/180/Twenty.23 system would be a well balanced experience in a small room.

Good advice from Feeling_zen, assuming you have a computer, network, can get a NAS, and are comfortable with streaming.  If you get a Stageline, you may want to keep the Hicap.  

It has occurred to me that if you hate the idea of streaming, changing the 72/HC for a 202 powered by the 180 would be a good option but that's not a significant box count reduction (unless you pick up a second hand CDX2 which could be an incredible upgrade). A SN2 could replace all the amplification but I would really hesitate to suggest anything that seperates you from the really excellent 180.

I had a similar problem and went with Neat Iota speakers mounted to the wall. I already had a 'spare' 72 / HiCap / 140 and when stacked (home made wooden stand) they take up little space.  The Iotas do sound better with a small supporting sub but I run them without as its not my main system and space is really at a premium in that room.  Source is a sonos connect.  

If you can stick with half width boxes you'll save a lot of space (DAC V1, Rega DAC, Rega Apollo etc).

Matt

kota posted:

I've got a valhalled LP12/Ittok/Denon 103,  a Naim cd3.5/flatcap, 72/HiCap/180 and Neat Mystiques 2 speakers

I also need to downsize due again to space restrictions so a Nait 2 springs to mind but these again are very difficult to come by.

I will still be needing a phono stage

Three options spring to mind to me:

1. As a minimalist approach, don't dismiss the Nait 2 option for the smaller room, especially if you like the idea of limiting box count/size. In North America Nait 2's come onto the s/h market for circa $800 and servicing is about the same cost. Half-size and you'd have an on board phono stage. Good match for your CD3.5/Flatcap and the Denon 103. Wide selection of room appropriate VFM speakers to choose from, though a step back from your 72. Might be worth looking around.

2. Middle of the road approach: a Nait XS or Nait XS-2. You'll get more grip and refinement but introduce the need for a separate phono stage; however, both Nait XS's can power a Stageline without need for a PSU, leaving you to use your existing HC on the Nait XS's pre. A step closer to your 72. Still plenty of VFM speakers to select from with this option.

3. Max approach. Pretty much any other separates/higher level system that will get suggested here beyond the NAC 202 (including streaming). Although you've been previously happy with your existing system before the room change, I wonder how well the CD3.5 and Denon 103 will pair with more resolving, higher level gear.

Agree with Matt on the Neat Iota option - as I have a system in my shed/office which is very similar size to the OPs. These are being driven off the UQ2 - it is not my main system but provides a much more than adequate way to enjoy music and work. 

If budget is tight and an integrated is your goal then sure, a Nait 2. 

But if 2 boxes are possible then maybe a 172 into the 180? Still amazing though not a 272. And far cheaper (maybe even available second hand). I'm a bit of a broken record on this but since you asked what we'd do in the same situation there is no way I'm letting go of the 180.

If you were inclined to sell the lot and scale down then I might just get a single UnitiQute2 and be done with it. But that's pretty drastic.

I see your point and sorry for not mentioning  I'm on a tight budget from the beginning. These are all new options for me my but again but I must stress out I want to keep my LP12 as my main music source which if getting these new digital preamps would mean an extra phono stage which together would probably cost more than the sell of the olive kit I own. I'll have to see first how much I can get for it before deciding.

Anyway and out of curiosity why are you so keen on the 180 power amp? It definitely sounds great and I've owned quite a lot a Naim equipment in the past from 62/140 to 32.5/HiCap/250 CB and some Naits too but I've never had the chance to do an A-B comparison with the 180 in my system with the 140 nor the 250 as such.

Thanks

Pedro

The 180 is the best bit of gear you have excluding the LP12. It's closest relative is the current 200 which, if its been recapped i the last few years, makes it a keeper. That is why I would desperately be trying to find a pre or streaming pre to marry it to so as to reduce box count and sneak in an upgrade. All this talk of downgrading to a Nait 2 doesn't seem worth it.

If you can be patient it may be worth getting rid of the FC and HC (powering the 72 from the 180) just for the sake of reducing box count now, then when funds allow replace the 3.5 and 72 with a streaming pre in a year. Kind of a one step back followed by three steps forward approach.

The HC of course can power a phono stage but Naim phono stages are not the only game in town. NAD phono stages are a tiny fraction of the cost, small, but excellent. But without a doubt not the same level as a StageLine.

On the basis of everything you've said, I'd just get a Nait 2 and use it with the JPWs. Perhaps you could get some Kans later on, if any appear locally, and use them on wall brackets, if you have brick walls. You could even sell the CD player and flatcap and get a Rega. Then you'd have two little boxes and the Linn, which sounds perfect. There's no need whatsoever to get entangled with this new fangled steaming malarkey. 

Do space limitations prevent running the 72 and 180 without the HC?  Must be better than the Nait2, I should think.  

and the plot thickens ...

yes feeling_zen. My 180 has been serviced by Naim some years ago and hungryhalbut somehow I tend to agree with you. I do have solid walls. You do mean a Rega DAC, right? Nickseattle let me just tell you knowing myself as I do, there's always the psychological effect of realizing how much better it could sound with the HiCap.  With a Nait that simply vanishes since there's no way it can be upgraded. Maybe not the perfect solution but certainly the best for my peace of mind for the time being.

I will give it a rest for now and work it from here as all the different options will come by. I'll reopen the thread as soon any developments became available. Thanks for the input everyone.

Cheers

Pedro

I was thinking of a Rega CD player, simply because they are small. 

got ya ..

Dear Pedro,

quite in a similar situation as yours: small room, 3x5m, with the listening position at around 2.5-3m in front of speakers-on a sofa, not a symmetric arrangement in the room in order to avoid acoustic problems. In the same room, besides the audio rack and sofa, a desk and chair for computer usage. As you can see, tight space. My solution: nd5xs+xs2. Speakers: small Piegas, being small but with bass ports on their back is an overall OK having them placed against the wall. Because I felt courageous, I took a next step in involving a bigger rack, a CD player and a flatcap2-still OK as room filling, but definitely the max I can go. New to this forum, did not figured out how to attached a picture.

Personally, I think small room equals small speakers; moreover, small speakers = overkill using separates.

Regards,Bogdan.

Thanks for the feedback, Bogdan.

Still no change in my case so still listening at low levels which isn't that bad as a matter of fact. Listening to Van Morrison Live At The Grand Opera House Belfast vinyl as I write and enjoying every minute.

Cheers

Pedro

Close listening, = near field monitoring. How about small, passive ATC's. You could even put them on your desk, or on wall brackets. This suggestion, might raise alarm cries from some members. However, I'm quite experienced with near field monitoring, and have ATC SCM (Studio Control Monitor) 11,  in my digital studio at present. At just over arms length

Also SCM 7's in bedroom, on end of Qute2. Smaller boxes, no problem,  absolutely  no listening fatigue in either situation.

Both my SCM7's, and 11's were ex dem/used, to keep costs down. Go with the the pro's. Pink Floyd did.

In addition to the "big rig" in the living room, we also have a much, much smaller system in the office.

This office system is based either on or above the desk where I work.  It consists of a mac mini, a DAC-V1, my old but serviced NAP140 and a pair of wall mounted PMC DB1 near field monitors.  The speakers are only 1 metre away from my ears, so if you think your speakers will be close...

I have also owned several 32.5 pre-amps, hicaps of various vintages, a CB NAP250.  We also have a 72/hicap/140 based system elsewhere in the family.

So, based on what you have said, plus this history of what has gone well (or badly!), I would:

• keep the 72 and build a system around it.  
• keep the hicap if you can fit it in.
• replace the 180 (if you need the room) and get a 140 - it can even power the 72 if you have no room for the hicap
• Buy a pair of PMC DB1 speakers + the matching PMC wall brackets, then fix these to the wall with Fischer bolts.
• Add NACA5 speaker cable and be prepared to be absolutely amazed at just how musical and insightful your new system truly is.  It will also image like the very devil too.

Hope this helps, FT

Hi Kota, the former designer of TAD loudspeakers now works for Elac of Germany. Their F (floorstander) or B6 speakers are considered by most in the audio press to be the bargain of the century!  A few hundred quid for speakers worth 5 times as much, and boy do they sound great.  I am a convert.

I have a tiny office and use pmc 20.21 ..... they work really well on my computer desk.....raised up on solid timber blocks 150mm off desk. I suggest a 172 into your 180. Then get a small preamp for your mc from Linn.

Re speakers look at Q acoustics Concept 20 these are punchy very controlled little speakers that won't break the bank....they should sing on the naim gear. The other I have tested is the Kef LS50 these are very musical ... very unlike earlier Kefs but more expensive than Q's 

Good luck.....keep posting

I agree with Hungryhalibut. Your LP12 was made for a Nait 2 and Kans, or for that matter a 72/140 Kans. On a solid wall, Sound Organisation wall brackets, Nac A5. My small office has sported Kans in this manner on and off for years, and no small speaker, IBL aside which require big amps, has come anywhere near them, not NSats, nor Guru, nor Neats or any of the many other newer so called modern day Kan.

I'd be interested to know how small this small room really is, as it doesn't actually sound that small. 

If the Nait and Kans option is too hard to secure, then FT's suggestion of PMC DB1s is well worth considering. They are super little speakers, and are much better at soundstage than Kans, and it sounds as though this is important. They go very loud too, and would be good with a 72/140. 

I can't thank you all enough for your replies. Lots of different options each one valid on its own right. The room is actually 2,7x2.6m with solid wood suspended floor boards. When sitting at the desk, the speakers are pretty close behind me. Hardly ideal. Seems like I' m in my Mini driver's seat many years ago  :-)