Upgrading speakers

Adam Zielinski posted:

If anything I would look at upgrading your electronics first i.e. Source First principle.

I use to think that was a bunch of bull, and my personal feelings are that speakers make the biggest change to the sound, then the amp, but after replacing my current CD player with a new Naim player and the drastic improvement it made, I'm starting to think that maybe there is something to this source first philosophy thing.

I own ProAc D28s, and love them, but I still agree with the general consensus here. I don't know how they'd sound on the end of a U2, but if you haven't heard them why would you drop around $3K+ on used speakers that you've never heard in your room and on your setup?

I also adhere to source first (within reason; one has to look at the overall system and evaluate). Or even closer to the source first. When I was in a transitory living situation I had my $300 KEF backup speakers for my second system running with my NAD amp. When I got my SN I couldn't believe how much better they sounded, and how good they sounded period. More information getting to the speaker means more and better sound; a speaker can't play what is not there.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

badlands posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

If anything I would look at upgrading your electronics first i.e. Source First principle.

I use to think that was a bunch of bull, and my personal feelings are that speakers make the biggest change to the sound, then the amp, but after replacing my current CD player with a new Naim player and the drastic improvement it made, I'm starting to think that maybe there is something to this source first philosophy thing.

Welcome to the Pleasure Dome.

Thanks NIGELB

ProAcs require more power than you think.  I don't know if it is the impedance or the Naim approach to power but I have heard the smaller ProAc with smaller Naim gear at my dealer.   I am glad we have a 500 to drive a D40R.  He warned us that the ProAc requires power and pushed us into this direction and he was right.    I am not sure ProAcs are the last stop for our system but we are learning to live together and going slow as we look around.  

A second Naim anecdote.   We bought our first Naim amp from NANA as a show demo.  A Nait 5i.  After that, we found a set of nSats online and grabbed them.     This should have worked but it sounded like crap.   The Nait 5i did not have the power and resolution to make the nSat sound dimensional without turning them up too loud.   They sounded good with the amp portion of the Nait 5i but did not have any drive at low levels.   The Nait 5i had a passive volume control which appeals in theory but is less appealing in practice.   Once we added the NaitXS and the FlatcapXS, we were off to the moon again.    Our CD5X -NaitXS- FlatcapXS - nSat system sounds off the chart.

Finally, in another part of our Naim household, my son has a UnitiQute2B into a pair of Blumenstein Thrashers.  They are designed for low power tube amps and really dance well with the Qute.   We violated most of the HH rules with this acquisition but trusted our dealer Peter @ Venice Audio and followed his recommendation.   Peter had a pair, had sold several to price sensitive commercial customers, and all loved them and that was enough for us.  The Thrasher pair cost $500 last summer and sound as good as anything at our main home.   I would try to get a demo from Blumenstein Audio of their best idea for a speaker to mate with the Uniti2 before jumping off into deep water with your existing non-returnable alternatives, no matter how inexpensive.  I bet Blumenstein will give you a 30 day trial and I bet you will be pleased.  To my knowledge, Blumenstein has no dealers in the US, much less the UK.   Don't let that stop you from making contact with him.   He might want more of his speakers installed in Naim systems in your area.

Bottom line is that buying a "recommended" speaker to match any amp you already love is a crap shoot, no matter how good the amp.  

for a uniti2 - I have heard the Sonus Faber chameleon with these and sounds fanastic to me, the Sonus Faber are a gentle load on the Naim amp. The Venere range is also very good sounding with Uniti 2, and the older SF speakers like Toy Tower are fantastic.  I also heard Unitiqute with PMC and wow what a fast dynamic sound. Quite amazing.

Alternatively, try to find second hand pair of old Naim speakers , (but make sure you can push them right back to the wall)

Last but certainly not least, why not try to audition Dynaudio Excite series, these are made to be an easy load on the amp, so any of the excite range should sound quite good with Uniti2.  Don't go higher than excite as the higher models do require some more power from the amp (so you will need NAP200 and upwards). But even these Dynaudios are very revealing, so they will show you exactly what is going on in your system, and any change you make to it. (I use Dynaudio excite speakers, and not particularly motivated to upgrade them, they are good)

Also if you MUST have those proacs, consider buying a NAP 200 DR or 250 DR, it will change your Uniti into something else. How do I know, well I tried my 250DR with a Superuniti, and the SU alone sounds fine (in ignorance) and then when I added 250 DR, well the SU then sounded stressed, running out of breath, and the music was so much better with the 250 DR 

The new 200DR is one very good Naim amp, and relieving the Uniti of power amp duties allows the Uniti to keep the power for the DAC and Preamp, while the 200 does the power amp job. 

Thanks for your comments. I'll look into those speakers. Regarding Proac and uniti2 (without a 200/250dr) do you think it's powerful enough to drive a set of d18's?

I have heard Supenait with Proac studio 140, and no lack of power, drove them like a champ.

The SN1 does have 80 watts, but your UN2 has 70, I guess it should be ok. I would consider D18 with UN2 as compatible.

I do remember once hearing NDX/102/180 (which I think is 60 watts) with no PSU like Hicap driving the Proac response 2.5, very well, no lack of power. Whether you like that kind of overpowering bass is another matter, there was just too much bass for my ears.

So yes D18 or studio 140 should be fine with Uniti 2

It's not just about power, it's about quality. Would you drive the Proacs with a Nait 5i?

I'm not a source first disciple - I believe in balance/synergy - but HH has this right.  The Uniti might drive the Proacs, and it might be the solution the OP, but without an audition it's a risk - I'd say.

Source first does not preclude balance. I would consider it a poor outlay of money to buy a NDS for the replacement front end of a NDX/272/250 with my lower end KEF speakers. Clearly in that system, the speakers would be the first upgrade. Even if the front end were a ND5 XS I would do the speakers first, because they are so far below the rest of the system. But "proper" speakers in that setup would then likely reveal the inherent shortcomings of the source.

Similarly, if I had a CD3/Nait 5i/SBL (just to keep it in the Naim framework) then clearly the Nait would be the proper upgrade path...

Source first is not a dogma, it's a guideline, and must take into account the most "out of whack" aspect of a system if in fact one exists. So balance, with source first as a general guideline, all things being generally equal.

I'm going to step out from the crowd and say buy them.  If they're such a good deal, and they don't work for whatever reason, you can always move them on for little, or no, loss of money.

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's not just about power, it's about quality. Would you drive the Proacs with a Nait 5i?

the Uniti 2 is not a Nait 5i....  It has a 70W channel amp, more then Nap 180 and as much as NAP 200

I know the Naim write up says the uniti2 is derived from Nait 5i amp, but it is more powerful.

Hungryhalibut posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

"Don't buy something that is too good for your electronics "

 difficult to figure this out.

By something, I mean speakers, and it was in that context I wrote what I did. There have been loads of examples of people buying swanky speakers without a good enough source and amplifier, and then spending shed loads in order to feed their hungry mouths. It's like a cuckoo in the nest of a wren. 

I did understand your context, but to figure out that context is more difficult.

a quick look on the net and it would be easy to buy Naims SBL speakers for £600.    PMC DB1i or GB1 speakers for the same.      There are many here using such speakers with 500 level gear and very happy them, even someone I remember using Naims NBL with a Statement set.   Of course I'm not saying such systems are wrong but many people wouldn't understand why you would spend many £ on electronics and have something so modest.  At which point does speakers become a MULLET ?   Are we all deluding ourselves that there is any point in spending more than £1000 ?

I can appreciate the point of source first and good, clean quality power, but I can appreciate also why many find those large shiney expensive speakers a more "safer" way of spending money - even if the quality of gear won't get the best out of them at that present time. It's an investment, upgrade a system around the speakers and enjoy more pleasure from them.

DrMark posted:

 

Source first is not a dogma, it's a guideline, and must take into account the most "out of whack" aspect of a system if in fact one exists. So balance, with source first as a general guideline, all things being generally equal.

Doc we agree!! But alas in the past I think it has been a dogma.  I can recall the debates in the 80s when the advice was instead of buying a Dual 505/NAD3020/Kefs for £400 buy a Linn LP12 only and sit and look at it until you can afford an arm/cartridge/amp/speakers.  Of course I exaggerate but you get my drift.  With due apologies to the OP for hijacking his thread.

Regards,

Lindsay 

analogmusic posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's not just about power, it's about quality. Would you drive the Proacs with a Nait 5i?

the Uniti 2 is not a Nait 5i....  It has a 70W channel amp, more then Nap 180 and as much as NAP 200

I know the Naim write up says the uniti2 is derived from Nait 5i amp, but it is more powerful.

As I said, it's not a about power, it's about quality. 

analogmusic posted:

 

Also if you MUST have those proacs, consider buying a NAP 200 DR or 250 DR, it will change your Uniti into something else. How do I know, well I tried my 250DR with a Superuniti, and the SU alone sounds fine (in ignorance) and then when I added 250 DR, well the SU then sounded stressed, running out of breath, and the music was so much better with the 250 DR 

 

I have never tried a 250DR with a SU but i demoed a SU alone with a couple of PMC fact 8 , 89db so not so easy to drive, no stresses sound but impressive performance; great transparency , never plagued with listening fatigue, three-dimensional images on a soundstage that was wide and tall, with good depth.

With which speakers you heard SU running out of breath!!

TOBYJUG posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

"Don't buy something that is too good for your electronics "

 difficult to figure this out.

By something, I mean speakers, and it was in that context I wrote what I did. There have been loads of examples of people buying swanky speakers without a good enough source and amplifier, and then spending shed loads in order to feed their hungry mouths. It's like a cuckoo in the nest of a wren. 

  Of course I'm not saying such systems are wrong but many people wouldn't understand why you would spend many £ on electronics and have something so modest.  At which point does speakers become a MULLET ?   Are we all deluding ourselves that there is any point in spending more than £1000 ?

 

+10

Hungryhalibut posted:

As I said, it's not a about power, it's about quality. 

So Uniti2, 5 stars in what Hi fi !!!! spectacular reviews in many audio magazine lacks quality to control a couple of pro ac

we are talking about Naim products, who wrote the hi fi story,  famous in all the world for quality and stunning sound.  Maybe I missed something in this path

Uniti range is quite good. But other Naim components are simply better. I run quite a lot of them at home, and there is a very clear improvement as we progress from a Unit, through SuperNait to separates....

Horses for courses, I believe is the expression.

I am in full agreement with you Adam, but reading this thread I think there are too extremist statements. perhaps before giving hasty judgments should listen to a combined Uniti2. ProAc D18 or Totem Hawk.

Perhaps we forget that those who have opened the topic, he should not do it, could not be happier with his Naim product as it was before. 

Of course - testing at home is always the best possible way. 

Adam

Yes correct,  but this is not always possible.

Birdre if you can not bring home the speakers then put the U2 under your arm as the French do with baguette bread (because it looks like a baguette for some) and run to test it directly to dealer.

Anto68 posted:

I am in full agreement with you Adam, but reading this thread I think there are too extremist statements. perhaps before giving hasty judgments should listen to a combined Uniti2. ProAc D18 or Totem Hawk.

Perhaps we forget that those who have opened the topic, he should not do it, could not be happier with his Naim product as it was before. 

I agree. Going the up the Naim ladder will more than likely bring better performance but that does not mean the Uniti 2 is not up to the task on its own. I don't know about the ProAc speakers but I know it will handle the Totem. I also know it can and will handle more Dynaudio lines than just the Excite. 

Take a look at focal aria 926...