Naim FraimLite - wow

Nice post what did you find improved 

Great news Ian. I'll be looking for some form of rack by the end of the year, so glad to hear the fraimlite improves things. 

Same question as analogue, what improvements did you hear? 

I was afraid someone would ask me to describe the improvement. 

The sound was muddy before in comparison, more detail now and yet more musical.  I'm hearing things like the reed on a saxophone that I didn't hear before.  

I think it's clear a file cabinet is about the worst thing you can put your gear on!  

If you're going to use a filing cabinet, make sure you place the kit inside  the cabinet, not on top.

I believe (though I've not tried it) that the lower the drawer you use, the better the bass sounds, so always use the bottom drawer if available.

Ian Brown posted:

I was afraid someone would ask me to describe the improvement. 

The sound was muddy before in comparison, more detail now and yet more musical.  I'm hearing things like the reed on a saxophone that I didn't hear before.  

I think it's clear a file cabinet is about the worst thing you can put your gear on!  

Ian, you have made a wise choice, and saved some loot in the process!

Straight off Naim's website:

"It retains the cup-and-cone interface system used by its bigger brother too, but omits the dual layer base and ball-bearing decoupled glass shelf. Reference Fraim levels can be incorporated into the same system as FraimLite so that you can upgrade to our top of the range equipment support on a level-by-level basis."

I' ve picked up a 4 tier unit from the Netherlands, and 3 tier unit from Canada, as you say, a noticeable improvement.

In my particular case the System as a whole appeared to quiet down.

Just picked up some Naim cups and bolts, and speced out some Naim glass, which I will have supplied by local glass company.

 Will post, once implemented!

Enjoy your Music ( the why )

Allante93!

Maybe we should have an informal contest for the worst way to situate your gear?  

Inside the filing cabinet would be at the top of the list.

Allante - I'll be curious to read what you think when you upgrade with the glass.  That is probably my next move.  It is nice to be able to avoid the initial outlay for the full fraim.  

Ian Brown posted:

Maybe we should have an informal contest for the worst way to situate your gear?  

Inside the filing cabinet would be at the top of the list.

Allante - I'll be curious to read what you think when you upgrade with the glass.  That is probably my next move.  It is nice to be able to avoid the initial outlay for the full fraim.  

Sure thing Ian! 

Allanate93! 

This Fraim upgrade route is the one I've followed, starting with basic Fraim Lite then later adding balls & glass (from Naim) for my NDS & 552.  Wasn't sure that I heard any significant improvement.

Next step was a change to two 'proper' Fraim shelves (just the wood shelf) for the NDS & 552, that were 'rescued' from my dealer when he acquired a box full of (I call it) junk (he called it 'opportunity').

Latest move is to buy a 'previously loved' (I hate that phrase) proper Naim shelf from that famous dealer in all things used Naim, with the drums, place it as the first level above the base and balance my NAP500 on this, if I can lift the 500 from the bottom level where it sits now.

All the power supplies still sit happily on a Fraim Lite stack to the right of the brains stack (500 NDS 552).

Still to do will be to replace the base levels with the full two-layer Naim bases, but at £800 each and three stacks... sharp intake of breath !   This base configuration is, though, a key to the success of the original full Fraim design, I'm told.

So I recommend to anyone wondering about starting with the Lite version rather than the full version... go for it.  It sounds good, and the opportunities to upgrade the rack are definately there and are real... you just have to keep a sharp eye out for the bargains in your dealer, or on that auction site.

Enjoy, Ian

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

Ian Brown posted:

Maybe we should have an informal contest for the worst way to situate your gear?  

Inside the filing cabinet would be at the top of the list.

With the cigars in a humidor ?

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

Actually, no.   We have been that route and turned around.

The Fraim is the king of WAF at my house because it makes everything sound better and it is great looking and it all matches the look of the boxes that sit in it.  We get nothing but compliments.  On the looks and the sound.  

It does cost $1000 per shelf on average, so you have that as an impediment, but taking the sound and the look into account, it is a bargain at the price.  The cost is variable as your system grows, and the benefit is cumulative like the cost.   As your system improves, the stand improves accordingly, a la carte.  You can hear it at every turn.    And you can put the Fraim together second hand on a piecemeal basis and come out much better financially.

If you have not tried the Fraim, don't knock it.  There well and truly is nothing better.

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

There's definately physics behind it, otherwise it wouldn't do what it does.   Let's rule out magnetic fields straight away - all the components are non ferrous (I think), and with the glass shelves in place vortexes cannot develop, spacial distortion or otherwise.

Problem is my A level physics dates back fifty years (when the smallest particle discovered was an electron!) and it's all a bit misty by now, however I do recall stuff like energy and mass and inertia and good things like that,  and it's that sort of physics that will explain to the open minded among us how it really works. Unfortunately I'm not the right person to explain the detail, but be assured there are folks cleverer than me who actually could explain it - some of them are forum members.

For the less open minded folk, of course, the explanation is a whole lot simpler... it just works like magic 

I hope this dispels your skepticism DynFan  (but I suspect it won't).

Roger

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

DF160,

You owe it to yourself to do some reading/homework on the subject rather than looking for quick answers here to assuage your skepticism. There is a primer here which covers the fundamentals involved and should set you on your way to further googling.

A good idea for sceptics is to take a listen, then the scientific approach can be used if desired. The idea that nothing cannot work because I say I am into science is one of the dangers for new discoveries not just discovering more than of the same.

Science and a closed mind is not a good match.

Claus

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

There is a white paper on the Finite Elemente site that will answer your question. You may want to google it. Not sure about Naim, but with Finite Elemente, they used the resonator technology for the sound optimisation of their racks. The rack manufacturer has developed the racks based on research and collaboration with Dortmund University of Applied Sciences with Prof Dr Borchert being the lead researcher. The design is based on mechanical energy principles where modal analysis is carried out to measure the oscillations caused by resonances at various frequencies during the design process of the rack(s). The key is to reduce or eliminate these sound-distorting oscillations that can be detrimental to the components which in turn affect sound quality.

Of course, we can measure the resonances or vibrations in the racks, though facts and figures will not prove anything if they do not translate to what we hear with our ears. In other words, it is the end result that counts. Resonances or vibrations can be measured, but "sound quality" cannot be measured, You will have to use your ears to determine if the reduced vibration/resonance has *improved* on the sound quality. This is the tricky part though, as it would be a subjective rather than objective evaluation. Having said that, objective assessment can sometimes be useful if the objectives of the test or evaluation are met. However, folks do not usually perform these tests as they are too troublesome. Most of the time we will just use our ears to tell if there is an improvement, and that is where some skeptics will come and tell us that our ears are not an accurate measuring tool. :-)

It's not only with racks as this can apply to hifi components as well.

Ian Brown posted:

Yesterday I picked up a discounted base and one level set of FraimLite for my office system.  Before that I had my old Nait 5 and Headline sitting on a file cabinet.  I can't believe the improvement with the Lite.  Granted, the cabinet was a poor choice, but the Lite is the biggest, instant improvement I've experienced with any of my Naim equipment.   It also looks great and was a breeze to put together.  

That file cabinet must be empty without any files if you have perceived a huge improvement with the Fraim. A good resonance conductor.

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

I think it's a good idea.  I do recall one forum post where someone mounted a Fraim level in a cupboard.    But essentially there are 3 types of support or hifi furniture.   1. Simply supports the hifi. 2. Let's  a hifi component do its thing.  3. Adds / alters something to the sound.

The other advantage FraimLite has over Fraim: It looks 10x better. 

No dust magnet glass shelves or the massive increase in horozontal lines.

Said half tonge n cheek, half dead serious.

ryder. posted:

Ian Brown posted:

Yesterday I picked up a discounted base and one level set of FraimLite for my office system.  Before that I had my old Nait 5 and Headline sitting on a file cabinet.  I can't believe the improvement with the Lite.  Granted, the cabinet was a poor choice, but the Lite is the biggest, instant improvement I've experienced with any of my Naim equipment.   It also looks great and was a breeze to put together.  

That file cabinet must be empty without any files if you have perceived a huge improvement with the Fraim. A good resonance conductor.

You're right - the cabinet is less than half full - basically two junk drawers.  

I tend to side with the skeptics on these topics and my system at home sits in a cabinet like the one DynFan160 has but the FraimLite has made me a believer.   And I have had two non-audiophile women compliment the Lite on its looks.

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

Irrespective of how the unit sounds in its role as Hi-Fi support, I think that is a lovely piece of furniture

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

Dynafan160,

This attractive furniture ranks as second to the file cabinet for worst sounding support.   You are justified in your scepticism, but you owe it to yourself to recalibrate your intuition.  For example, find a way to listen to a well-set-up system like yours which sits on a Fraim.  It will likely have quieter background, better musical texture detail, better PRaT, less bass muddle and play louder without sounding strained.  

The physical reasons for this are that vibrations, excited mostly by sound in the room, affect the musical performance of your equipment, cables and cable connections.  These phenomena are profoundly more destructive of sound quality than the casual observer would expect.  (This observation is corroborated by Barry D. In the link from joerand).  A good sounding rack will be low mass, stiff, highly linear with no rattles or micro-rattles; and will be open to allow good ventilation around amplifier.   It will ring cleanly if tapped at various locations, at frequecies above the bass range.   A poor sounding rack will be heavier, less-stiff, and nonlinear (with rattles and "muddles").  When tapped it will sound not-clean:  all-a-muddle, or with rattles or micro-rattles.  It will likely sound out at upper bass frequencies.  

A "finely tuned" HiFi setup will be clean and tight, like a musical instrument.  This is what is needed for the excellent Naim boxes to achieve there best performance.  With less effective support shelves, one has wasted some of their investment in the black boxes.  Best to consider the rack as one of the necessary components in one's HiFi system and budget accordingly.

Charlie

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

 

DynFan,

I think that you are right to sceptical. Both the papers linked to are, in my opinion, very poor.  

In many cases, the majority of the isolation given to a piece of equipment is via its rubber feet.  My experience (proper measured experience in fields where this actually matters) is that solid-state equipment is in anycase impervious to vibration (unlike the stand itself sometimes).  Hence, the major role for a hifi stand (especially for convection cooled equipment) is to make sure there's enough space around the equipment for air to flow, and not make a racket itself. Some spacing is also good to minimise interference from electromagnetic coupling from sources such as transformers. Hence, buy what makes you feel nice, what makes the room look good and if you really think that the electronics are microphonic then why not put the kit in another room or well away from the speakers.

All the best!

Martin M posted:

DynFan160 posted:

I'm sorry but I am a skeptic. I don't see how a piece of furniture can improve the sound. Does it create some sort of magnetic field? A spacial distortion vortex? Please tell me some of the physics behind the thing.

While FRAIM is one of the more stylish of the such name-brand pieces, it doesn't compare to what I have pictured below in terms of style. A true Statement in the FRAIM line would be to custom-build the NAIM "magic" into pieces such as what I have. Or manufacture an even more modular version of FRAIM that could interface with furniture like mine. I can only add that FRAIM would never get WAF in my case but this furniture / media stand certainly did!

 

 

DynFan,

...

Hence, buy what makes you feel nice, what makes the room look good and if you really think that the electronics are microphonic then why not put the kit in another room or well away from the speakers.

All the best!

This last sentence is good advice.  Not everyone wants to have equipment in their living room which might look like a science experiment.  Music can still be enjoyed, even if not at the best performance level achievable.  In my case, I have gone to some extremes to improve the sound quality (to my ears).  I have heard profound improvements in dynamics, articulation and musical realism, by attending to microphonics.  Naim also do this with all their products, and to heroic extreme in their Statement line.  While it may be tempting to hold a strong opinion on this subject based upon ones intuition, I advise to keep an open mind until one has listened to various alternatives.

Charlie

Hi Fi can be an expensive hobby, especially if one chooses the likes of Linn or Naim.

I've taken the Linn route, and was pleased with the outcome.  Unfortunately, gear failed to operate, and was not serviceable by Linn.

Hence, I'm giving Naim a go, and so far I'm pleased. I believe if one chooses a Hi fi company they should stay the course to achieve the company's intended sound.

 Ok, to the pt. 

Serviceability

 Resale value/2nd hand market

 Upgradeabilty 

These attributes are not restricted to Naim's Black boxes, but also applies to Naim's racks!

"Reference Fraim levels can be incorporated into the same system as FraimLite so that you can upgrade to our top of the range equipment support on a level-by-level basis."

Nice!

Allante93!

""DAVIDFMEMBER

11/3/15  7:26 AM

quick update- got the AV Options corian shelf from Chris West and have placed it under my CDS 2 on my Fraim instead of the glass that Naim supplies

I notice a slight firming up of the sound- things seem  a bit more solid/organic maybe less "hifi"

Impossible to rule out placebo effect of course.  So far, a nice and inexpensive upgrade.

Daivd""

Did a search, Corian with Fraim, and came up with the above quote, just curious any more experiences with Fraim and Corian shelves?

Reason I'm asking, I got a line on some Corian shelves, thinking about pulling the trigger!

The aesthetics shouldn't be that bad with 3 sets of Naim Cups & Balls.

The plan is 2 Corian on the 4 tier Brains, ( 282/cdx2), and 1 Corian on the 3 tier Brawn's for balance.

Fraimlite

Allante93!