Where is Naim Video?

There have been postings on the lack of new Naim AV products.

I suspect they have withdrawn from this section of the market.  There seems to be no sign of a bluray player or a replacement for the AV2 with HDMI and HD audio decoding built in.  If you really want a Naim solution for AV you'll probably have to hunt for something on the second hand market similar to to my equipment, and use a bluray player with HD audio decoding on-board (e.g. Oppo 83 or 95).

Hi, Dungassin.

I have 282/250.2 stereo system  which I want to upgrade to Naim Home Theater.

I have large HD Sony TV panel with HDMI inputs and I'm OK to use a new generation of blueray players (like Sony BDP or whatever the forum will advise me). But what about amplification?

Can I use my 282/HC/250.2 and add 145 for mid/back channels? 

I also plan to buy nSAT/nSUB setup -- or should I go for other speakers?

BTW is this section OK for these questions or should I redirect them to Hi-FI Corner?

Correct forum, IMO, so no worries there.

Your stereo amp will not be converted to multichannel just by getting a Naim 145, so you will need your bluray player, and appropriate AV Processor or AV Receiver.  Unless you are determined to have "all Naim", you may find it easier to get one of the many Japanese AV Receivers.  To be honest, although you do notice the difference with Music DVDs etc, for general film/theatre use, that would be adequate most of the time. I have the n-System and am very happy with it.  I suggest you look at my FAQ on Stereo/AV integration for guidance.  The URL is :

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/2833539985312821

Hi AMA. You'll need the NAP V175 which will do the rears and centre channel, the NAP V145 is a mono amp and used for just the centre channel only. so you would need a separate 2 channel amp for the rears if you went for the NAP V145. The obvious processor to use with these is Naim's own AV2.

Hi again.  I use Oppo83SE (multichannel analogue output for HD audio from bluray, coaxial digital output for DVD), Naim AV2, 282, HiCap, 250.2, 145 and 200, n-System.  Works very well for me.  Being lazy I've got it all set up on my Harmony Remote so I can go from one source to another without faffing about.

Rackkit is correct - if you want to use Naim for centre/rear, then the 175 is the one to go for.  I must admit I hadn't really twigged that you said 145 and not 175 - a classic case of seeing what you expect to see rather than what was actually written.

As I said above, if you really want to use one of the newer bluray players, then with HD audio, then you'll have to try to get one with on-board decoding for HD Audio (DTS Master HD etc) and use it into an AV2, or just bite the bullet and get an AV Receiver with HD Audio Decoding built in and do it that way.  What you choose to do will depend very much on your budget etc.

You don't say whether you intend to keep your current front speakers.  No reason why you shouldn't, but I would check out that your proposed centre speaker matches them tonally.  The way I did it back in the days when I used Royd Speakers in my AV system was to take one of the front speakers to the shop and use it on one channel of a stereo amp with the centre speaker on the other channel, switching from one to the other using the balance control (and mono if available) to check the tonal qualities matched.  Of course, if you went for nSATs front and rear, with nCENT this wouldn't be necessary.  I use my nSUB with the 282/250.2 via the HiCap's other output.  Took a bit of tweaking to get the levels and crossover setting right, but it was worthwhile IMO.

Ok, so I can add AV2 and NAP175 to my 282/250.2 system and this will build up a home theater?

Still have some unclear points.

Point 1. 

What about mixing stereo floorstanders with nSATs for center and back channels? Or better go for a complete nSAT set?

Point 2. 

Can other AV units do the same job as Naim AV2 or is it unique in some way?

1. Mixing floor standers with nSAT rears, nSUB, nCENT perfectly OK.  If SWMBO would have let me convert my Active SBL system to AV use, I would have used the SBLs as front speakers. Just bear in mind my caveat about tonal matching.  What floor standers are you using?.  If you are a solitary listener, you don't always need a centre speaker - just sit in your usual spot for good stereo and tell the processor that there is no centre speaker present.

2. They all do pretty much the same job, albeit to varying quality levels.  The more recent units have onboard HD audio codec decoding built in (using HDMI connection to the receiver).  The AV2 is a very good AV processor/preamp.  However, it does not have onboard HD Audio decoding.  Hence my comments about using a bluray player with its own HD decoder and multichannel analogue outputs.

Alternatives do pretty much the same thing, but most have built-in power amplification which you could use for your centre/rear.  If you went down that route you wouldn't need to buy a 175 (or 145 plus other power amp for the rear channels).

Thanks for your kind support Dungassin!

My loudspeakers are not going to be a part of the home theater. They are expensive ceramic drive speakers which will match my new Naim 500 stereo system.

At the same time I want to make use of my 282/HC/250.2 and turn it into a home theater, preferrably all-Naim (or almost all-Naim).

I currently use Harman Kardon DVD37 and Harman Kardon Receiver 445 and 5.1 Infinity speakers.

I think building a new system around 282/HC/250.2 may seriously improve the SQ.

Assume I go for 175 to compliment my 250.2 stereo (I guess 175 is a very good amp of 200 level).

Now you say I can go for a blueray player which can decode 5.1. Do I still need 282/HC? 

Thanks in advance.

So you're going for 2 separate systems?  That's what I have, but mainly because SWMBO thinks the living room is "hers", and I have to wait until she's not there to use my Naim Olive Active SBL system.

My AV system has been through various configurations, and I introduced the 282/HiCap/250.2 so that I could have better quality stereo in the study (where the AV system lives).  Currently debating next upgrade to that system ... 555PS for the Naim nDAC? ....

As you don't seem quite sure of what you want to do, can I suggest the following? :

1. I have downloaded the manual for your Harmon Kardon AVR, and although it has HDMI inputs/outputs, I can't find any mention of HD Audio decoding being included.  Am I correct in this assumption, or have I just not read closely enough.  As such your cheapest and easiest option would be to get a new generation bluray player with good quality HD decoding onboard and use the appropriate leads to connect it to your AV receiver.  I like the OPPO players, which I believe give a very good DVD picture (at least as good as my Naim DVD5), and the sound quality via their analogue outputs is excellent.  There is also the plus point that it is fairly easily to get hold of one of these players multiregion for bluray and DVD.

2. For now, why don't you just get the appropriate lead to connect your 282/HiCap/250 into the Harmon Kardon (see my FAQ) and use the 250 to drive the front speakers.  If you don't already have a 5.1 speaker system, the Naim n-System is very good IMO.  See how you get along with that.

3. If centre/rear quality seems inadequate, then consider getting a Naim 175 for centre/rear channels.  If you're feeling really flush, you might quite like the 145 for centre channel and either another 250.2 or a 152 or 200 for the rear channels.

4. If still not happy, then you're going to have to look for an AV2 and get the appropriate PHONO>DIN leads from a company such as Fastback Cables.  Great fun figuring out which PHONO goes in which socket on your bluray player - I thought I had it all worked out, but found that I had VI1 and VI2 transposed.  Didn't really sort it out until I messed about with the OPPO's speaker test setup.

Dungassin, thanks for the extendedn reply.

I still miss some points.

Assume I have all-Naim power amps: 250.2 and 175.

Assume I buy Naim nSAT/nSUB.

Assume I choose OPPO blue ray player as the front end.

So both extremes of the chain are sorted.

So where is the place for my 282/HC?

If it preamplifies the 250.2/front speakers so who will preamplify the rear/center channels and how they will match the gross volume control?

Keep in mind that I possibly miss a basic knowledge of home theater systems 

Oh, -- and I have no idea of what HD Audio decoding is !

OK ...

To reduce it to basics.

You must have 5 channels of power amplification (plus the subwoofer, which has its own poweramp built in).  The 250.2 and 175 will give you this.  The AV processor/receiver provides the preamplification for AV use.  The 282 would only be active in stereo mode when using its inputs other than the AV one.

Simplest configuration is to connect the power amps to the preamplifier out sockets on your AV processor or AV receiver.  You will need the appropriate leads : DIN>DIN for all NAIM, PHONO>DIN if using an AV processor which uses PHONO sockets for its preamplifier outputs.

You can then do the speaker setup routine as specified in your AV processor or receiver's manual.

If you want to keep the 282, then it will NOT be used for the AV side of things, and its volume control will do nothing.  If you read my FAQ you will see that you connect your AV processor/receiver to the AV input (Unity Gain) on the 282, which is basically just a "pass-through" to the poweramp.  Your AV Processor/Receiver will control the volume.   The only real point of having the 282 there is for stereo use, using its other inputs.  This is a way of keeping your stereo sound quality and adding AV surround sound without degrading it.

The Naim AV2 is, as I have said, a very good preamp in its own right - certainly in the same ballpark as Naim's entry level preamplifiers.   Using a different AV Receiver or Processor will give differing results,and I would not wish to comment on the merits of any individual possible item

Audio on DVDs (and off-air from sources such as Freeview etc) is compressed.  Think of it as MP3 quality.  You will find lots of stuff on the internet about the various merits of DD5.1, DTS etc.  These compressed codecs (that is what they are called) have to be decoded.  DVD players (unless they have an onboard decoder/DAC for this purpose) usually output this signal via their optical/coaxial digital outputs, and your AV Processor/Receiver decodes it (decompresses it) and then outputs it as analogue audio.

High Definition Audio Codecs (HD codecs) are lossless, and should (in an ideal world) give the best quality.  There are 2 basic formats which you will find on the back of your bluray boxes.  Again, I have no thoughts as to relative quality of these two formats.  Also, some  bluray discs just have the PCM soundtrack.   PCM means pulse code modulation.  It is the basic uncompressed digital feed - think of it as WAV and the HD codecs as FLAC (as a first approximation).

These HD codecs have to be decoded, just as ordinary DTS and DD must be.  This is accomplished by a DAC (digital to analogue converter).  The current mainstream practice is to take a digital feed from the bluray player via HDMI (coaxial or optical digital is not adequate for this) and feed it into a processor/receiver with its own HD decoders.   The alternative is to use a bluray player with the HD codec DAC built in., and then output it as analogue audio from the multichannel sockets on the back of the player.  These can be connected to the appropriate analogue input sockets on your processor/receiver.

If you do go down the route of using a bluray player with onboard decoding, just bear in mind that you may need to set a different subwoofer level for the analogue connection as opposed to the digital one.

Just to confuse you even more, if you opt for a 7.1 setup rather than a 5.1, everything as above still applies, but you need another stereo amplifier for the extra surround channel.  Probably not worth bothering about unless you have a very large room with multiple listener/viewers.

Good luck!

Dungassin, thanks a lot -- brief and contained.

Now it comes clear about 282. Possibly I can trade-in 282 for 175 -- will check up with a dealer.

OK -- what about high quality Blueray players which already have preamplification of 202/282 level and only need poweramps?

Or alternatively -- if I use BDP thru HDMI -- what AV processor should I buy to match my Naim poweramps?

Now you're asking questions I can't answer.  I have no experience of bluray players with their own inbuilt preamplifiers.  I have my doubts about their likely quality.  I have no real world experience of connecting non-naim AV processors to Naim power amplification other than quite a few years ago when I integrated a 32.5/SNAPS/NAP90.3 with a Yamaha AV1.  Others may wish to comment on suitable matches.

If you're not intending to use your AV system for stereo use, then there is probably no point in keeping your 282 (or HiCap - unless you have another use for that).  You'd probably do better to sell the 282 and buy a 175 on a "well known auction site", as IIRC the 282 was more expensive than a 175.

At the risk of upsetting our more dedicated naimophiles, unless you are going for Naim level sound, you might be better just to use one of the higher end Japanese AV receivers or possibly the Arcam AVR600, using the sale of your 282/HiCap/250 to fund it.  Are you unhappy with the sound of your current Harmon Kardon AVR, or have you not really used it much?  Personally, unless it's a music DVD/bluray I find I often rapidly forget all about the sound if the movie is sufficiently engaging - provided there is a reasonably good frequency and transient response. 

Dungassin, I defintely DON'T like the sound of my HarmanKardon system. Its' fat, relaxed, low resolution, not punchy. When I listen for Lexicon audio-video setup in local showroom it's an absolutely another level of audio quality. This means that regular DVD features a good-enough audio quality so it worth investing in high class audio support. Unfortunately Lexicon is way too expensive (something like 30 K$) and I'm looking to get a good-enough quality with Naim. I think if Naim produces 175 they mean that this level of amplification quality is demanded in home theater market?

While getting your replies I start understanding some basics.

So I better buy a regular blue ray player with HDMI for video and tosslink for audio processing.

Then I buy AV2 which takes tosslink as input and then split it into audio 5.1 channels.

Then I run front  audio channels from AV2 to 250.2, center and rear channels to 175 and sub-channel to nSUB directly. 

That's clear. Now I'm educated enough to ask proper questions

Question 1. Does AV2 output quality matches the 250.2 and 175 power amp quality?

Question 2. Does AV2 built-in digital processor support all viable digital audio formats? In other words doesn't AV2 outdated for modern DVD market? 

Question 3. Is AV2 only availble second-hand today? (I don't see it on the Naim website)

Question 4. What particular non-Naim AV processor can you suggest to match 250.2 and 175 poweramp quality?

Question 5. Does OPPO provide a high quality digital output for the system like Naim AV2/250.2/175 + nSAT/nSUB or should I look for more expensive blue ray players? Which one?

And thanks in advance for your patience!

If you get an AV2 and want to use the HD Audio encoded on blurays, rather than the downmix to DTS (a whole other question, but apparently that is what bluray players output toslink if the audio on the bluray is HD only), you will need a Bluray player with onboard HD decoding.  You will still use that bluray players HDMI for the video side of things, but will take the appropriate analogue connection from its multichannel output into VI1 and VI2 on the AV2.  I would recommend still using the Toslink (as well) for then compressed codecs such as vanilla DD and DTS, because the AV2 is VERY good at using those.

AV2 is a reasonable quality match for the 250.2, and the 175 was specifically designed AFAIK to go with the AV2.  You just connect them as in the AV2 manual.  In my own system the AV2 is driving the 250.2 directly when used for AV - albeit with a couple of extra connections in the way because of the presence of the 282.

AV2 does not decode the HD Audio Codecs as used on bluray. It predates them, and has never been upgraded - this would involve hardware changes etc even if Naim were willing to do it.  Alas, no upgrade or replacement seems to be on the horizon.  Hence my comments about bluray players with their own onboard HD decoding and multichannel analogue outputs.  For ordinary DVD usage, the DVD5 is still one of the best DVD players I know, and the AV2 will decode all the audio formats on ordinary DVDs. 

AV2 really only available second hand now.  No longer a current product.  If you don't want to wait for one on fleabay, try a websearch for used ex demo Naim AV2 - you can usually find one that way.

I don't wish to comment on the suitability/quality of various non-Naim AV processors.  You'd have to go out and listen for yourself, which may be difficult given your location.  Incidentally, last time I checked the Lexicons didn't offer HD Audio decoding either, although this may now have changed.

I recommend the OPPO bluray players for build quality, picture, ease of use, and (where appropriate) quality of their onboard HD Audio decoders.  The 83SE I own is now an "old" model.  Not sure about the replacement 93 and 95 models.  You would have to check online to see which of these has onboard HD decoding.  Also, if it is important to you, check online for multiregion version of these machines.  OPPO is an American company, and IIRC (I am happy to be corrected if wrong) are actually only made for R1 use, hence you would probably need a multiregion player.  The much more expensive options with onboard decoding such as made by Pioneer and Denon may well be very good too.  They are certainly much more bulky.

If your happy with those caveats, I would say go ahead and get yourself the AV2, 175 and nSystem.  Don't forget that if you do get a bluray player with onboard decoding etc you will need PHONO to DIN leads of the appropriate type to connect the bluray player to the AV2 (as well as the Toslink cable)   I bought myself 2 of the 4 PHONO to DIN Crimson (tape recorder type) leads from Chord because the 4PHONO>DIN wasn't much more expensive than the 2PHONO>DIN, although Fastback would no do quite well.  If you opt for purchasing one 4PHONO>DIN and one 2PHONO>DIN instead, make sure that the the 2PHONO one is of the correct type because it does matter which pins are connected inside the DIN plug - i.e. which end is source : DIN or PHONO.

I would also have a look at the Cambridge 751BD : same Mediatek draws/drive/video card that the Oppo 93 but Cambridge tweak for the sound with 5 Wolfson DACs for multichannel output.

It's been reviewed in HiFi News of July and What Hifi of August against the Oppo 93, Marantz and other players of the same league.

(Don't know what's being said about this player as I don't live in UK ... )