Experience thus far with new Virginmedia hub...

i am actually thinking of buying a new cheap router just so i can establish whats going on first. i have seen Linksys WRT1900ACS -- at about £30 -- anyone know this and/or have have any experience of it?

enjoy

ken

Ken, it possible but does seem quite a coincidence as you say... Not sure of your exact setup, but fibre attenuators are used on PON fibres to ensure the power at the receiving equipment is critically set right.. Too much power and the receiver saturates, too little and the signal to noise ratio gets too low causing a high amount of transmission errors.

However in a PON setup there are severeal stages where attenuation faults can creep in, such as in the optical splitter at the cabinet or fibre cables themselves.

So if the issue is with fibre power level, this will be between transmitter and your fibre network terminating equipment in front of the router... I can't see it will be related to your router at all.... other than if the router accepts the fibre directly..

therefore if your engineer has measured your fibre power level at your home, and they see it out of spec.. They need to repair first... Once sorted then you can think, if you still need to, of alternate routers...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ken, it possible but does seem quite a coincidence as you say... Not sure of your exact setup, but fibre attenuators are used on PON fibres to ensure the power at the receiving equipment is critically set right.. Too much power and the receiver saturates, too little and the signal to noise ratio gets too low causing a high amount of transmission errors.

However in a PON setup there are severeal stages where attenuation faults can creep in, such as in the optical splitter at the cabinet or fibre cables themselves.

So if the issue is with fibre power level, this will be between transmitter and your fibre network terminating equipment in front of the router... I can't see it will be related to your router at all.... other than if the router accepts the fibre directly..

therefore if your engineer has measured your fibre power level at your home, and they see it out of spec.. They need to repair first... Once sorted then you can think, if you still need to, of alternate routers...

 

I don't think this is fibre attenuation that the engineer is talking about.  What comes into your home in a Virgin Media installation isn't fibre.  It's a 75 ohm coax (and a separate copper pair for the telephone). The coax goes into a splitter with a port for the TV and another port for broadband.  So the network connection to the Superhub is an ordinary coax.  The up and down signal levels have to be in spec and the VM engineer can check these by testing from the network control end and maybe from the local end too.  I say "maybe" because this was possibly locally by looking at the cable modem web server with some of their old cable modems, but the "trainee" who installed my Superhub 2ac on Friday had to ring his boss.  

If the levels are too high, then they use an inline attenuator between the cable modem and the coax. If it's too low then they have to go off to the street cabinet and select a different "tap" on the fibre/coax converter.  My own experience is that they put a 10 dB attenuator in line five years ago when I had my last cable modem change and took it off again when they put the Superhub in place of the cable modem.

None of this has anything to do with the router.  The Superhub has a router built in and if you want to use an external router then you have to set the Superhub in modem mode.  This is easy to do yourself by going into the Superhub settings via the web page which is shown on the label on the Superhub. Then you reboot the Superhub. I wonder whether this has been done? My "trainee" installer knew nothing about modem mode and quite happily plugged my external router into my Superhub and thought it was job done because the wifi worked.  I decided to try the Superhub's built in router so I just took the old router off and plugged my switch straight into a port on the Superhub. Perhaps I have been lucky, but it does seem to all work fine now and I'm getting just over 200 Mb/s download with no other problems.

So Ken I think you should check that your Superhub is set to modem mode first.  If it is then you could consider switching modem mode off and trying using the router inside the Superhub instead of your Drayteck router.  I don't think that buying a cheap router is necessary because either your Drayteck is faulty or it isn't and you can use the Superhub router to check that.  I think it is extremely unlikely that the Superhub has damaged your router and also even if the fibre levels were well too high (which as I say I don't believe is what the engineer meant), there is no means by which that could damage your Drayteck  router.

i hope this helps.

best

David

David, ok thanks, if it is RF electrical coax, it must be confusing when the ISP says they are providing a fibre cable when they are not... I thought we had a trade descriptions act for that... Ho hum

But I agree this sounds like it is between the cab and home terminating equipment / modem link attenuation and almost certainly nought do to with router... Ken get the ISP to confirm the coax link to the modem/'superhub' is in spec first and you are happy with its performance  before you change anything else, like add a new router.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

David, ok thanks, if it is RF electrical coax, it must be confusing when the ISP says they are providing a fibre cable when it isn't... I thought we had trade descriptions act for that... Ho hum

But I agree this sounds like it is between the cab and home terminating equipment / modem link attenuation and almost certainly nought do to with router... Get the ISP to confirm the coax link to the modem is in spec first before you change anything else.

Simon

Well most BT Infinity connections aren't fibre to the home either, although some are. Mostly they are fibre to the cabinet and VDSL over the copper pair to the home. But they are all described as fibre broadband.

There was a Virgin ad campaign recently in London (bus shelters etc) where they showed a picture of a gritty old copper pair for BT and a new beefy coax for their's and then quoted a recent survey which said their speeds were consistently the highest. The implication was "well what would you expect looking at these two cables.

if Ken isn't certain whether his levels are right, he should call Virgin Media technical support and get them to check, which they can do immediately from their end.

best

David

A neighbour has been having troubles with his Virgin service.  His service is coax - or at least it is now - a Virgin crew replaced a 100m ('ish) section of cable from a "manhole" to his property & that included a new run buried in his garden.  That was done 2 weeks ago & he now gets close to the 200mb/s Virgin package.   Prior to that it was variable & less than 100mb/s & although the nieghbour doesn't know much about these details,  I suspect the old cable was not coax.

David, agree Ken needs to get his ISP (Virgin) to resolve before he changes / buy new kit.

also agree it's not just Virhin that has confusing fibre terms in consumer products... BTs total upto 300 Mbps fibre service is BT Infinity 'Fibre to the home' ...  with its regular BT Infinity service being fibre to the cabinet .. where as you say VDSL is used.

interestingly I saw some recent research showing higher data rates can now be achieved over a short distance of twisted pair than equivalent distance coax... and this might be used in the next generation of  Superfast type services where FTTH is not practical or cost effective... I think RF noise and leakage is an issue however.. Anyway I digress.

Mike-B posted:

A neighbour has been having troubles with his Virgin service.  His service is coax - or at least it is now - a Virgin crew replaced a 100m ('ish) section of cable from a "manhole" to his property & that included a new run buried in his garden.  That was done 2 weeks ago & he now gets close to the 200mb/s Virgin package.   Prior to that it was variable & less than 100mb/s & although the nieghbour doesn't know much about these details,  I suspect the old cable was not coax.

No it would definitely have been coax. Virgin used it from the get go. But it probably was either damaged somewhere along its length, maybe from the original installation, or water had got in at the underground end. Water ingress kills the performance of coax (often the reason for a poor TV signal!).

best

David

Thanks David,  whatever the guy was very - like very - upset over his new lawn trench when he came home from work,  seems the TV problems were "the wife" but his lawn was his pride & joy.

Re BT,  last year they announced they will begin introducing hybrid-fibre 1000mb/s in 2016/17 & most homes able to get speeds up to 500mb/s.    Existing BT FTTC up to 75mb/s is good for properties within 400/500m metres from the street cabinet,  longer distances has lower line speed -vs- distance.  The new service works in a similar way but with a much shorter run of the existing twisted pair from cabinet to property - ideally 250m - It's expected much of this can be accommodated with a fibre connection from street cabinets to small local connection boxes/cabinets that service a <250m group of properties.   

 

So Ken I think you should check that your Superhub is set to modem mode first.  If it is then you could consider switching modem mode off and trying using the router inside the Superhub instead of your Drayteck router.  I don't think that buying a cheap router is necessary because either your Drayteck is faulty or it isn't and you can use the Superhub router to check that.  I think it is extremely unlikely that the Superhub has damaged your router and also even if the fibre levels were well too high (which as I say I don't believe is what the engineer meant), there is no means by which that could damage your Drayteck  router.

i hope this helps.

best

David

guess i didnt explain myself properly. i know about modem mode and its the mode i have been using so that  the Draytek router connected to the hub then takes the router duties. it all started by getting low speeds, then i lost internet completelt last Friday. as far as Virgin are concerned, they say all is OK up to the Hub -- and indeed i can get internet when i switch OFF modem mode on the hub and connect my PC directly to it -- and not go through the Draytek. so this suggests the router is indeed faulty -- but i am finding it all very strange that a router that working perfectly OK decides to fail when the new hub is installed.

when Virgin installed Fibre a few years ago, they also had to dig a trench in my nice lawn -- the cable they buried is stiff -- and as far as i can see runs all the way to the Hub.

enjoy

ken

I have had bad 'compatibility' between switches from different brands.

My main switch is a Cisco SG300 and I was using small Netgear and DLink switches connected to the Cisco.

The Netgear worked flawlessly, but the DLink couldn't get a stable connection. Solution was of course to replace the DLink with another Netgear.

just to show that different brands can have compatibility issues. So maybe your VirginHub doesn't like Draytek.

cheers

I think there is a decent chance that the technician couldn't solve the issue, and jumped to the easiest target which is a piece of hardware his employer does not support.  I've seen that play out many times.  In their defense, they probably cannot troubleshoot their hardware if the customer has disabled some of its functions and installed additional hardware.

Aleg posted:

I have had bad 'compatibility' between switches from different brands.

My main switch is a Cisco SG300 and I was using small Netgear and DLink switches connected to the Cisco.

The Netgear worked flawlessly, but the DLink couldn't get a stable connection. Solution was of course to replace the DLink with another Netgear.

just to show that different brands can have compatibility issues. So maybe your VirginHub doesn't like Draytek.

 

cheers

Yes, you may well be right here Aleg -- this would then explain the coincidental malfunction of the Draytek when the Superhub2 was installed. Ho hum...

Fortunately, i dont need the hub (internet) to stream my music -- but of course i will need the internet when i rip -- will cross that bridge etc etc...

enjoy

ken

Bart posted:

I think there is a decent chance that the technician couldn't solve the issue, and jumped to the easiest target which is a piece of hardware his employer does not support.  I've seen that play out many times.  In their defense, they probably cannot troubleshoot their hardware if the customer has disabled some of its functions and installed additional hardware.

that is my suspicion too and that is the reason why i posted on this. but i understand the potential complications of mixing -- though with std interfaces -- i'd have thought (theoreticall of course) that this wouldnt be an issue. ah well...  anyway, i want to try another router so that, with the virgin hum in modem mode, i can confirm that my router is probably kaput... 

anyway, what routers are you guys out there with superhub2 using without issues? in case this really boils down to changing my trusty Draytek.

Ho hum...

enjoy

ken

You could leave the SuperHub set up as a router so that Virgin will support you and not grumble that you've changed settings and are doing something they don't approve of, then simply set up your Draytek (or whatever) router to use a different IP range to it so that it routes across it - I set up all the routers here that the sales guys use when they're doing demos to - say - 192.168.240.x and then they can generally hook up the WAN ports of their routers to a LAN port of the network where they are and off they go...

If you do that then it's really easy to diagnose whether issues are with your router or theirs as you can simply plug your PC back into their router and see whether you get the same issues.

I had Virgin complaining that I had too many bits of kit on my network when I had problems with their service so popping everything behind another router meant that as far as the SuperHub was concerned it then only had one device connected to it and when they needed to use a PC to log in remotely and check stuff I simply connected a laptop to it and let them loose on that.

Phil

ken c posted:

Bart posted:

I think there is a decent chance that the technician couldn't solve the issue, and jumped to the easiest target which is a piece of hardware his employer does not support.  I've seen that play out many times.  In their defense, they probably cannot troubleshoot their hardware if the customer has disabled some of its functions and installed additional hardware.

that is my suspicion too and that is the reason why i posted on this. but i understand the potential complications of mixing -- though with std interfaces -- i'd have thought (theoreticall of course) that this wouldnt be an issue. ah well...  anyway, i want to try another router so that, with the virgin hum in modem mode, i can confirm that my router is probably kaput... 

anyway, what routers are you guys out there with superhub2 using without issues? in case this really boils down to changing my trusty Draytek.

Ho hum...

enjoy

ken

Over at my mates place (he's a Virgin Media project manager so has a number of different internet connections and VM routers - all of which we use just as gateways with half-decent routers behind them) we've used Linksys EA6300, Linksys EA7500 and Ubiquiti EdgeRouter Lite ...

The EdgeRouter Lite is a bit of a pig to set up and has no WiFi in it but it's a great bit of kit.

The Linksys EA7500 seems solid and seems to have decent WiFi performance too, the EA6300 seems solid but is discontinued and is a bit difficult to find nowadays.

Phil

Phil Harris posted:

You could leave the SuperHub set up as a router so that Virgin will support you and not grumble that you've changed settings and are doing something they don't approve of, then simply set up your Draytek (or whatever) router to use a different IP range to it so that it routes across it - I set up all the routers here that the sales guys use when they're doing demos to - say - 192.168.240.x and then they can generally hook up the WAN ports of their routers to a LAN port of the network where they are and off they go...

If you do that then it's really easy to diagnose whether issues are with your router or theirs as you can simply plug your PC back into their router and see whether you get the same issues.

I had Virgin complaining that I had too many bits of kit on my network when I had problems with their service so popping everything behind another router meant that as far as the SuperHub was concerned it then only had one device connected to it and when they needed to use a PC to log in remotely and check stuff I simply connected a laptop to it and let them loose on that.

Phil

Phil, many thanks for your input -- especially that you are sharing experience of using Virginmedia superhub with other 'bits of kit'. in fact, the negineer who came to investigate the fault was quick to say "i had too many bits of kit on my network" -- even though that setup has been working OK for a few years now without any issues.

i will try your router daisy chaining idea and see how this works out.

thanks again...

enjoy

ken

Phil Harris posted:

ken c posted:

Bart posted:

I think there is a decent chance that the technician couldn't solve the issue, and jumped to the easiest target which is a piece of hardware his employer does not support.  I've seen that play out many times.  In their defense, they probably cannot troubleshoot their hardware if the customer has disabled some of its functions and installed additional hardware.

that is my suspicion too and that is the reason why i posted on this. but i understand the potential complications of mixing -- though with std interfaces -- i'd have thought (theoreticall of course) that this wouldnt be an issue. ah well...  anyway, i want to try another router so that, with the virgin hum in modem mode, i can confirm that my router is probably kaput... 

anyway, what routers are you guys out there with superhub2 using without issues? in case this really boils down to changing my trusty Draytek.

Ho hum...

enjoy

ken

Over at my mates place (he's a Virgin Media project manager so has a number of different internet connections and VM routers - all of which we use just as gateways with half-decent routers behind them) we've used Linksys EA6300, Linksys EA7500 and Ubiquiti EdgeRouter Lite ...

The EdgeRouter Lite is a bit of a pig to set up and has no WiFi in it but it's a great bit of kit.

The Linksys EA7500 seems solid and seems to have decent WiFi performance too, the EA6300 seems solid but is discontinued and is a bit difficult to find nowadays.

Phil

Phil, many thanks for suggesting alternative routers that i could try...  a frend will bring along a Draytek 2925 (no wifi) to try in the next few days. i actually recommended it to him after seeing a message on this forum from a Naim rep - cant remember who now...  but very likely i will be getting a new router and your suggestions are very gratefully received.

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

Phil Harris posted:

ken c posted:

Bart posted:

I think there is a decent chance that the technician couldn't solve the issue, and jumped to the easiest target which is a piece of hardware his employer does not support.  I've seen that play out many times.  In their defense, they probably cannot troubleshoot their hardware if the customer has disabled some of its functions and installed additional hardware.

that is my suspicion too and that is the reason why i posted on this. but i understand the potential complications of mixing -- though with std interfaces -- i'd have thought (theoreticall of course) that this wouldnt be an issue. ah well...  anyway, i want to try another router so that, with the virgin hum in modem mode, i can confirm that my router is probably kaput... 

anyway, what routers are you guys out there with superhub2 using without issues? in case this really boils down to changing my trusty Draytek.

Ho hum...

enjoy

ken

Over at my mates place (he's a Virgin Media project manager so has a number of different internet connections and VM routers - all of which we use just as gateways with half-decent routers behind them) we've used Linksys EA6300, Linksys EA7500 and Ubiquiti EdgeRouter Lite ...

The EdgeRouter Lite is a bit of a pig to set up and has no WiFi in it but it's a great bit of kit.

The Linksys EA7500 seems solid and seems to have decent WiFi performance too, the EA6300 seems solid but is discontinued and is a bit difficult to find nowadays.

Phil

Phil, many thanks for suggesting alternative routers that i could try...  a frend will bring along a Draytek 2925 (no wifi) to try in the next few days. i actually recommended it to him after seeing a message on this forum from a Naim rep - cant remember who now...  but very likely i will be getting a new router and your suggestions are very gratefully received.

enjoy

ken

I used to recommend the DrayTek's myself but they are a bit on the expensive side and there's other decent kit out there nowadays as well ...

The EdgeRouter Lite is about £90 and from what I've seen of it (I use one at home) it's proven bulletproof so far (although it is a bit of a pig to set up) ... similarly the two Linksys routers there (the EA7500 and EA6300) have proven themselves to be solid and reliable too and they're easily available.

Phil   

ken c posted:

 

So Ken I think you should check that your Superhub is set to modem mode first.  If it is then you could consider switching modem mode off and trying using the router inside the Superhub instead of your Drayteck router.  I don't think that buying a cheap router is necessary because either your Drayteck is faulty or it isn't and you can use the Superhub router to check that.  I think it is extremely unlikely that the Superhub has damaged your router and also even if the fibre levels were well too high (which as I say I don't believe is what the engineer meant), there is no means by which that could damage your Drayteck  router.

i hope this helps.

best

David

guess i didnt explain myself properly. i know about modem mode and its the mode i have been using so that  the Draytek router connected to the hub then takes the router duties. it all started by getting low speeds, then i lost internet completelt last Friday. as far as Virgin are concerned, they say all is OK up to the Hub -- and indeed i can get internet when i switch OFF modem mode on the hub and connect my PC directly to it -- and not go through the Draytek. so this suggests the router is indeed faulty -- but i am finding it all very strange that a router that working perfectly OK decides to fail when the new hub is installed.

when Virgin installed Fibre a few years ago, they also had to dig a trench in my nice lawn -- the cable they buried is stiff -- and as far as i can see runs all the way to the Hub.

enjoy

ken

It certainly does sound like a router issue then. I forget if I suggested looking at the router's own set up page via a web browser but you may get something from that and you will be in there anyway to implement Phil's suggestions.

Regarding the cable under the lawn, this is a coax as I said before. It goes back to the cabinet where the fibre to coax converter is. Virgin Media never did install fibre all the way to the home.

best

David

Phil Harris posted:

You could leave the SuperHub set up as a router so that Virgin will support you and not grumble that you've changed settings and are doing something they don't approve of, then simply set up your Draytek (or whatever) router to use a different IP range to it so that it routes across it - I set up all the routers here that the sales guys use when they're doing demos to - say - 192.168.240.x and then they can generally hook up the WAN ports of their routers to a LAN port of the network where they are and off they go...

If you do that then it's really easy to diagnose whether issues are with your router or theirs as you can simply plug your PC back into their router and see whether you get the same issues.

I had Virgin complaining that I had too many bits of kit on my network when I had problems with their service so popping everything behind another router meant that as far as the SuperHub was concerned it then only had one device connected to it and when they needed to use a PC to log in remotely and check stuff I simply connected a laptop to it and let them loose on that.

Phil

Phil, just checking where i set up the IP address in the Vigor Draytek:

I assume its here:

so i check ON the 'Specify IP address' option and set the value as you suggest.  and when thats done i connect the router from any port on the Superhub2 to which port on the Drayteck -- i guess WAN1??

I assume if i do this, then all the fixed IP address for my streaming devices will be OK aas they are  ?

many thanks...

enjoy

ken

Ken, that is the external WAN interface on your Draytek... So are you using your Superhubsuperhub as a modem? In which case you would typically set your Draytek router WAN interface  to talk to the modem using PPPoverEthernet over its own Ethernet patch lead. But I don't see that option on your screen there ... You should only really have only one router acting as a router on your home network.. Unless you are going to manually configure the routing  tables or set up using routing protocols..  not really where a home LAN user wants to go.

just referring back to earlier in thisthread .. If you use your Superhub as a router.. and forget the Draytek.. Does everything work.? It's best to keep it simple if you can.. .i thought you said you had coax cable attenuators issues? Or has that been fixed now? Try with the Superhub as router and modem .. Check everything works.. And then go from there

I actually use Draytek Vigor as an ADSL modem and currently connect to my Apple router using PPPoverEthernet and that works ok...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ken, that is the external WAN interface on your Draytek... So are you using your Superhubsuperhub as a modem? In which case you would typically set your Draytek router WAN interface  to talk to the modem using PPPoverEthernet over its own Ethernet patch lead. But I don't see that option on your screen there ... You should only really have only one router acting as a router on your home network.. Unless you are going to manually configure the routing  tables or set up using routing protocols..  not really where a home LAN user wants to go.

just referring back to earlier in thisthread .. If you use your Superhub as a router.. and forget the Draytek.. Does everything work.? It's best to keep it simple if you can.. .i thought you said you had coax cable attenuators issues? Or has that been fixed now? Try with the Superhub as router and modem .. Check everything works.. And then go from there

I actually use Draytek Vigor as an ADSL modem and currently connect to my Apple router using PPPoverEthernet and that works ok...

Hi Simon, thanks for looking in - see Phils suggestion to daisy chain the Superhub2 (as a router) and the Vigor router as in:

"You could leave the SuperHub set up as a router so that Virgin will support you and not grumble that you've changed settings and are doing something they don't approve of, then simply set up your Draytek (or whatever) router to use a different IP range to it so that it routes across it - I set up all the routers here that the sales guys use when they're doing demos to - say - 192.168.240.x and then they can generally hook up the WAN ports of their routers to a LAN port of the network where they are and off they go..."

i am assuming that if i achieve this, then the fixed IP addresses i have set up for NDS, US, etc will not need changing.

Right now i am using my superhub2 as a router, so  the Draytek is now irrelevant as it simply is not connected to the internet and its there just to support streaming playback with my NetGear switch.

of course i could also connect my switch directly to a LAN port on the superhub2, i guess if i do this, then i would have to set up the fixed IP addresses, if needed, on the superhub2?

enjoy

ken

David Hendon posted:

It certainly does sound like a router issue then.....

i think so too. i cant help but suspect that the virgin superhub may have fried my Draytek (specially with the wrong initial attenuation) -- but an earlier response suggested this is unlikely, so hey what do i know...

a somewhat 'fortunate' (??) side effect though is that my whole system somehow sounds a lot better. i dont think i am imagining this as i would have expected my annoyance/bad mood with all this palaver would affect my listening pleasure negatively -- but i am hearing quite the opposite.

this may suggest that perhaps my router may have been sick for some time and the superhub2 took it 'over the edge', who knows...

this actually makes me a bit hesitant to change anything now -- the coward that i am :-)

enjoy

ken

Ken, I am afraid I didn't understand Phil's comments.. As you can't daisy chain routers without adding complication and configuration which the home consumer doesn't really want to do... He might have meant using wifi mode on 'routers' when acting in bridge mode and Phil was using simplified terms?? Only he can explain what he meant. Routers simply allow different network (subnets) to talk to each other, but when you have more than one router daisy chained you need to add routing configuration.. and that is beyond the scope of this forum.

So you can setup your Superhub as a router, or I believe possibly as a modem. If it the latter then the Draytek can act as the router... But you need to set the Draytek WAN interface to talk to the Superhub modem... typically this is achieved by setting the inter working protocol as PPPoverEthernet on both the modem and router... 

The other option is to keep it simple and use the Superhub as router and wifi and perhaps use a simple unmanaged switch to connect everything and see if it all works... I think this is what you are doing now.. So unless you need to change best keep it that way...

Simon