CD or Server

Naimiac posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

And I am an odd guy here, who uses both CD and streaming at the same time.

To replay the same piece of music, I hope... But how do you synchronise them?

;-

N

And vinyl at the same time ))

What I meant is that I still use my CDX2.2 on regular basis, despite having ripped almost all CDs.

Frank Abela posted:

NBPF, FYI, if you use the Unitiserve to store music on a NAS you should use the US as a server anyway. You'd be mad not to, since the US as server is far superior to most servers built into NAS drives. So you would still be using it as both ripper and server.

Frank.

This does not apply to the HDX. The opposite was the case. Asset and Minimserver showed it up for the musical bottleneck it was.

Nothing is black and white. Proceed using own ears.

Harry posted:

Frank Abela posted:

NBPF, FYI, if you use the Unitiserve to store music on a NAS you should use the US as a server anyway. You'd be mad not to, since the US as server is far superior to most servers built into NAS drives. So you would still be using it as both ripper and server.

Frank.

This does not apply to the HDX. The opposite was the case. Asset and Minimserver showed it up for the musical bottleneck it was.

Nothing is black and white. Proceed using own ears.

But fortunately is the case with US SSD and NAS Tried various options and US as a server is the best for me. That's why I use it.

Exactly. Own ears first.

My HDX was SSD. In the final analysis it just wasn't good enough but it gave many years of top quality service before the NDS moved the game on.

I think the problem is that many consumers, at all levels of audiphile/hifi desire, would like a simple box that they buy that then requires no more difficult setup than other hifi components, and that includes the storage side. At the moment Naim do it with the renderer, but apart from the US as far as I'm aware all the other streaming products require the user to set up storage themselves, which as all the exvhanges on these forums confirm is something of a minefield. 

At the very least, every Naim dealer should be able to and offer to provide, setup and  and support at least one NAS and associated network, which it seems is not the case, or not universally. The moment anyone starts having to faff about with the computery side of it some consumers are understandably put off, or disappointed if they've purchased first without realising, and, once involved in the fiddling about, the other options that can provide as good and in some cases distinctly better sound quality and at often significantly lower prices are equally accessible. This is of course to that consumer's benefit, subject to adequate research, however it is not to the benefit of the consumer who wants a totally non-tech approach, and not to the benefit of Naim who clearly have a potential market with that particular part sector if they get it right, which from comments on here may have been almost the case with the US, but clearly not with higher end products.

Quite true actually.
Although, in NAIM's defence, I did you their white paper on US with NAS set up (used their QNAP paper). Worked the first time and was dead-easy to set up.

David Hendon posted:

nbpf posted:

 Then there is the additional problem of the lack of clean power supplies for the US and the fact that it is not fanless.

The Unitiserve is fanless.

You are right David, thanks for spotting my mistake! Best, nbpf

Innocent Bystander posted:

I think the problem is that many consumers, at all levels of audiphile/hifi desire, would like a simple box that they buy that then requires no more difficult setup than other hifi components, and that includes the storage side.

This is particularly true given the current and upcoming development of SSD prices and sizes. Also, Naim should have considered that not all Naim users happen to live in modern houses with concealed, high quality ethernet wirings or want to run a NAS in their LANs.

From this perspective, an half sized, modular black box with a low-power, open-OS microserver able to run, among others, MinimServer and a OpenHome renderers, with wireless connectivity, user upgradable SSDs and options for high-quality USB, Ethernet, S/PDIF outputs and PSU would be a very nice complement to the current range of Naim products.

Such device could provide wireless access to internet streaming services like Tidal or Qobuz without the need for Naim to spend time and money trying to squeeze these functionalities into the SQ-optimized firmware of their streamers. Via app, the box could be setup to work as a bare UPnP server or to provide direct feeds to streamers and DACs.

The box would also allow Naim to focus on a single control point app (Bubble UPnP comes in mind) instead of developing and maintaining two. From the user's perspective, the device would provide a ready-to-use seamless integration of LAN and internet resources for streamers and DACs in a classical Naim black box. 

nbpf posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

I think the problem is that many consumers, at all levels of audiphile/hifi desire, would like a simple box that they buy that then requires no more difficult setup than other hifi components, and that includes the storage side.

This is particularly true given the current and upcoming development of SSD prices and sizes. Also, Naim should have considered that not all Naim users happen to live in modern houses with concealed, high quality ethernet wirings or want to run a NAS in their LANs.

From this perspective, an half sized, modular black box with a low-power, open-OS microserver able to run, among others, MinimServer and a OpenHome renderers, with wireless connectivity, user upgradable SSDs and options for high-quality USB, Ethernet, S/PDIF outputs and PSU would be a very nice complement to the current range of Naim products.

Such device could provide wireless access to internet streaming services like Tidal or Qobuz without the need for Naim to spend time and money trying to squeeze these functionalities into the SQ-optimized firmware of their streamers. Via app, the box could be setup to work as a bare UPnP server or to provide direct feeds to streamers and DACs.

The box would also allow Naim to focus on a single control point app (Bubble UPnP comes in mind) instead of developing and maintaining two. From the user's perspective, the device would provide a ready-to-use seamless integration of LAN and internet resources for streamers and DACs in a classical Naim black box. 

Melco...

nbpf posted

This is particularly true given the current and upcoming development of SSD prices and sizes. Also, Naim should have considered that not all Naim users happen to live in modern houses with concealed, high quality ethernet wirings or want to run a NAS in their LANs.

 

My house is far from modern...with solid internal walls.. However I find flat Ethernet cable designed to be laid under carpets works a treat... all concealed and out of mind... Ethernet can be applied very easily in a lot of cases.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

nbpf posted

This is particularly true given the current and upcoming development of SSD prices and sizes. Also, Naim should have considered that not all Naim users happen to live in modern houses with concealed, high quality ethernet wirings or want to run a NAS in their LANs.

 

My house is far from modern...with solid internal walls.. However I find flat Ethernet cable designed to be laid under carpets works a treat... all concealed and out of mind... Ethernet can be applied very easily in a lot of cases.

Simon

Indeed, unless you're happy with vinyl and/or CD you're going to want to network your HiFi. I delayed doing this properly for too long, having half metre thick internal walls and no fitted carpets, but it was definitely worthwhile. Skinny fibre optic cables made the installation much more straightforward for me.

ChrisSU posted:

Indeed, unless you're happy with vinyl and/or CD you're going to want to network your HiFi.

Sure, but not via cables! In my system, a Naim DAC is directly connected to a small (16cm x 16cm x 2.5cm, black die-cast aluminium), fanless microserver via USB and S/PDIF bridge. My whole music collection fits into a 1TB internal SSD drive but a 2TB drive costs less than 600 EUR nowadays. Thus, storage is not a problem anymore and there is no need to fiddle around with wires, NAS devices, carpets, ethernet plugs etc. these days, in my view.

The only data to be exchanged between a server/renderer directly attached to a streamer/DAC and a control point (I am currently using Linn Kinsky on iPad) at replay time are UPnP related requests. For these, wireless connections are good enough, possibly even better than wired connections. In my case, I find that wireless is fine even for (relatively) high resolution internet video streaming, e.g., of Digital Concert Hall concerts.

Of course, a server/renderer directly attached to a streamer or DAC could also be set up to fetch data (wirelessly or through wired connections) from other LAN devices (a NAS, for instance) if one wishes to do so. It could offer replay from local memory thus providing seamless integration of LAN resources and a dedicated connection to end-devices.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

nbpf posted

This is particularly true given the current and upcoming development of SSD prices and sizes. Also, Naim should have considered that not all Naim users happen to live in modern houses with concealed, high quality ethernet wirings or want to run a NAS in their LANs.

 

My house is far from modern...with solid internal walls.. However I find flat Ethernet cable designed to be laid under carpets works a treat... all concealed and out of mind... Ethernet can be applied very easily in a lot of cases.

Simon

True, in a lot of cases wiring can be done very easily. Still, not everyone wants to run a NAS and, for me, no cables is still better than hidden cables. Also, the popularity of alternative solutions (be these based on Mac Mini + audirvana, NUC + JRiver, fit_PCs + MPD, upmpdcli, etc.) and the interest in devices like the Melcos, the Aries Mini, the microRendu, etc. suggest that, among Naim users, there is a demand for other solutions than those based on NAS + streamers. So far, Naim has failed to fully address such demand. The nDAC and the DAC V1 are great devices, but the server side is lacking and I believe that the difficulties that Naim is experiencing in supporting internet streaming services through firmware upgrades could have been easily avoided if Naim had timely invested in open, customizable, low-power server solutions. Just my two cents, of course. Best, nbpf

NBPF - your posts are not really constructive anymore - you are repeating the same thing again and again. Time to move on.

ChrisSU posted:

Indeed, unless you're happy with vinyl and/or CD you're going to want to network your HiFi. I delayed doing this properly for too long, having half metre thick internal walls and no fitted carpets, but it was definitely worthwhile. Skinny fibre optic cables made the installation much more straightforward for me.

Not necessarily. I am now streaming only, but do not need wired network - Mac Mini with Audirvana is my store + renderer, and direct connection to my Hugo (well, indirect as it goes through the Gustard). I do have a wired network (to all rooms, in-wall - but easy because I renovated the house) to which MM is connected for convenience of both downloads and backup, though they could be transferred by wireless network when not playing music, or off-line by plug-in disc.

Innocent Bystander posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Indeed, unless you're happy with vinyl and/or CD you're going to want to network your HiFi. I delayed doing this properly for too long, having half metre thick internal walls and no fitted carpets, but it was definitely worthwhile. Skinny fibre optic cables made the installation much more straightforward for me.

Not necessarily. I am now streaming only, but do not need wired network - Mac Mini with Audirvana is my store + renderer, and direct connection to my Hugo (well, indirect as it goes through the Gustard). I do have a wired network (to all rooms, in-wall - but easy because I renovated the house) to which MM is connected for convenience of both downloads and backup, though they could be transferred by wireless network when not playing music, or off-line by plug-in disc.

Tidal, Spotify, download purchases, AccurateRip lookups, album artwork, Rovi, iRadio, firmware updates......anyone who listens to more than just CD or vinyl is going to use at least some of the above. OK, you could even stream locally from a NAS with no internet connection, but I don't see why keeping a digital player off your LAN makes any sense. 

ChrisSU posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Indeed, unless you're happy with vinyl and/or CD you're going to want to network your HiFi. I delayed doing this properly for too long, having half metre thick internal walls and no fitted carpets, but it was definitely worthwhile. Skinny fibre optic cables made the installation much more straightforward for me.

Not necessarily. I am now streaming only, but do not need wired network - Mac Mini with Audirvana is my store + renderer, and direct connection to my Hugo (well, indirect as it goes through the Gustard). I do have a wired network (to all rooms, in-wall - but easy because I renovated the house) to which MM is connected for convenience of both downloads and backup, though they could be transferred by wireless network when not playing music, or off-line by plug-in disc.

Tidal, Spotify, download purchases, AccurateRip lookups, album artwork, Rovi, iRadio, firmware updates......anyone who listens to more than just CD or vinyl is going to use at least some of the above. OK, you could even stream locally from a NAS with no internet connection, but I don't see why keeping a digital player off your LAN makes any sense. 

I think you are missing the point. Neither I nor, I believe, IB are arguing for keeping a server offline, on the contrary. The point that I am trying to make is that there are advantages in having a direct (that is, not via switches, routers, etc.) connection between a server/renderer and a streamer/dac. One advantage, for istance, is that -- once you have such a dedicated connection -- it does not really matter whether the server/renderer is connected to your LAN wirelessly or via wires. Best. nbpf

ChrisSU posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Indeed, unless you're happy with vinyl and/or CD you're going to want to network your HiFi. I delayed doing this properly for too long, having half metre thick internal walls and no fitted carpets, but it was definitely worthwhile. Skinny fibre optic cables made the installation much more straightforward for me.

Not necessarily. I am now streaming only, but do not need wired network - Mac Mini with Audirvana is my store + renderer, and direct connection to my Hugo (well, indirect as it goes through the Gustard). I do have a wired network (to all rooms, in-wall - but easy because I renovated the house) to which MM is connected for convenience of both downloads and backup, though they could be transferred by wireless network when not playing music, or off-line by plug-in disc.

Tidal, Spotify, download purchases, AccurateRip lookups, album artwork, Rovi, iRadio, firmware updates......anyone who listens to more than just CD or vinyl is going to use at least some of the above. OK, you could even stream locally from a NAS with no internet connection, but I don't see why keeping a digital player off your LAN makes any sense. 

My comment was answering the assertion that if someone wants other than just vinyl and/or CD they will [necessarily] want to connect their hifi to the network, implicitly by cable. As NSDF interpreted I'm not suggesting keeping the hifi off a network (far from it - my MM is networked, even though it doesn't need to be): I was/am merely pointing out, for the benefit of anyone unwilling to have the necessary wiring, that it is by no means essential.

For metadata that can be done before transferring files to the hifi store (not saying that's the best way, but entirely feasible), and album information can be viwed from a tablet or smartphone etc, and firmware updates are sufficiently infrequent to allow moving the unit to an internet connection if that is needed. The one real limitation if not networked would be online streaming from internet radio or sources like Tidal or Spotify - but those don't suit everyone's needs anyway (including mine). But yes, a wired network connection would facilitate these other services, and make some other tasks slightly easier.

tonym posted:

 

Melco...

Tony, if I can pursue this further - In the 'Is Melco the new Hugo' thread earlier this year, now closed,  you posted that you had a N1A on trial, and liked it ... then you went for the N1Z SSD. And in recent posts you'e indicated that direct into a DAC Melco gives better SQ than Mac Mini/Audirvana.

What convinced you to get the model you did at nearly 4x the price? And re MM/Audi, does that apply to the N1A as well as the N1Z? And did the Chord  QBD you were using have galvanic/rf isolation if you weren't using a separate isolator between it and MM?

Innocent Bystander posted:

tonym posted:

 

Melco...

Tony, if I can pursue this further - In the 'Is Melco the new Hugo' thread earlier this year, now closed,  you posted that you had a N1A on trial, and liked it ... then you went for the N1Z SSD. And in recent posts you'e indicated that direct into a DAC Melco gives better SQ than Mac Mini/Audirvana.

What convinced you to get the model you did at nearly 4x the price? And re MM/Audi, does that apply to the N1A as well as the N1Z? And did the Chord  QBD you were using have galvanic/rf isolation if you weren't using a separate isolator between it and MM?

 

On the side lines learning, very interesting post for me because, I'm headed towards Streaming, but don't fully understand the concept!

CD or Server ? 

As others have suggested in the past, It's a new Paradigm, Both.

Taking it slow,  on the CD end, I got it, beef up my Cdx2 with a 555PS. 

Now Streaming, I'm using Airport Extreme to Airport Express  to 3 locatins within my home.

2012 MM/Extreme/Express/282/HCDR/3 x 250.2/Briks

But, I'm limited to iTunes, which I purchase tunes for a buck, rip CD's all of which is combined into my library, which consists of 1500 songs!

I can create countless numbers of playlists, and all of this can be controlled with my Android cell phone ie remote application, all of this is free, and when the internet malfunctions, I resort to the trusty Cdx2!

 I don't know the correct terminology, but assuming Audirvana, is an application.

Ok, Question:

What else is needed, if I pick up a 2nd hand Ndac?

What would be my server?

What is Spotify?

MM is located in the office, I'm thinking Ethernet wiring to all 3 locations.

Then MM/Ndac/282

How far off am I in my thinking process?

Thanks in Advance!

Not far... 

Allante93 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

tonym posted:

 

Melco...

Tony, if I can pursue this further - In the 'Is Melco the new Hugo' thread earlier this year, now closed,  you posted that you had a N1A on trial, and liked it ... then you went for the N1Z SSD. And in recent posts you'e indicated that direct into a DAC Melco gives better SQ than Mac Mini/Audirvana.

What convinced you to get the model you did at nearly 4x the price? And re MM/Audi, does that apply to the N1A as well as the N1Z? And did the Chord  QBD you were using have galvanic/rf isolation if you weren't using a separate isolator between it and MM?

 

On the side lines learning, very interesting post for me because, I'm headed towards Streaming, but don't fully understand the concept!

CD or Server ? 

As others have suggested in the past, It's a new Paradigm, Both.

Taking it slow,  on the CD end, I got it, beef up my Cdx2 with a 555PS. 

Now Streaming, I'm using Airport Extreme to Airport Express  to 3 locatins within my home.

2012 MM/Extreme/Express/282/HCDR/3 x 250.2/Briks

But, I'm limited to iTunes, which I purchase tunes for a buck, rip CD's all of which is combined into my library, which consists of 1500 songs!

I can create countless numbers of playlists, and all of this can be controlled with my Android cell phone ie remote application, all of this is free, and when the internet malfunctions, I resort to the trusty Cdx2!

 I don't know the correct terminology, but assuming Audirvana, is an application.

Ok, Question:

What else is needed, if I pick up a 2nd hand Ndac?

What would be my server?

What is Spotify?

MM is located in the office, I'm thinking Ethernet wiring to all 3 locations.

Then MM/Ndac/282

How far off am I in my thinking process?

Thanks in Advance!

Yes, Audirvana is an App for Macs, MM is perfect platform because it can easily be dedicated, and run 'headless' with no monitor or keyboard (control can be remote from any coputer/tablet using remote control software such as the free VNC player) Audiv is inexpensive, and available with free trial. Its own remote app is extra (and not free trial). Latter is quite new and It and the  library are constantly being refined.

you can use iTunes as the library within Audirvana, a legacy there I assume because of teh number of people hooked on it (why I don't understand!), but best quality is gained by using Audiv's own library.

As for your 1500 songs, if they are mp3 then that will limit the quality of sound possible, but still playable and as enjoyable as you are used to. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Allante93 posted:

On the side lines learning, very interesting post for me because, I'm headed towards Streaming, but don't fully understand the concept!

CD or Server ? 

As others have suggested in the past, It's a new Paradigm, Both.

Taking it slow,  on the CD end, I got it, beef up my Cdx2 with a 555PS. 

Now Streaming, I'm using Airport Extreme to Airport Express  to 3 locatins within my home.

2012 MM/Extreme/Express/282/HCDR/3 x 250.2/Briks

But, I'm limited to iTunes, which I purchase tunes for a buck, rip CD's all of which is combined into my library, which consists of 1500 songs!

I can create countless numbers of playlists, and all of this can be controlled with my Android cell phone ie remote application, all of this is free, and when the internet malfunctions, I resort to the trusty Cdx2!

 I don't know the correct terminology, but assuming Audirvana, is an application.

Ok, Question:

What else is needed, if I pick up a 2nd hand Ndac?

What would be my server?

What is Spotify?

MM is located in the office, I'm thinking Ethernet wiring to all 3 locations.

Then MM/Ndac/282

How far off am I in my thinking process?

 Thanks in Advance!

Yes, Audirvana is an App for Macs, MM is perfect platform because it can easily be dedicated, and run 'headless' with no monitor or keyboard (control can be remote from any coputer/tablet using remote control software such as the free VNC player) Audiv is inexpensive, and available with free trial. Its own remote app is extra (and not free trial). Latter is quite new and It and the  library are constantly being refined.

you can use iTunes as the library within Audirvana, a legacy there I assume because of teh number of people hooked on it (why I don't understand!), but best quality is gained by using Audiv's own library.

As for your 1500 songs, if they are mp3 then that will limit the quality of sound possible, but still playable and as enjoyable as you are used to. 

 

Thanks Innocent Bystander:

Ok, Audirvana is an App. Which is superior to itunes. 

Ok , I'm learning, but taking it real slow.

ITunes is an App, used with Mac's

Audirvana is an App. used with Mac

 Records = TT

CD's = CDP

Is the MM my server which I get High Resolution songs that available from Audirvana library?

In other words what is a server?

What are the basic parts of Streaming?

Server, Dac, and ?

I know to many questions?

No more questions, but thanks I'm learning!

Trying to figure out the advantages of Streaming, and, what if the music I like is available from Audirvana, Spotify,etc.....  

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

 

Thanks Innocent Bystander:

Ok, Audirvana is an App. Which is superior to itunes. 

Ok , I'm learning, but taking it real slow.

ITunes is an App, used with Mac's

Audirvana is an App. used with Mac

 Records = TT

CD's = CDP

Is the MM my server which I get High Resolution songs that available from Audirvana library?

In other words what is a server?

What are the basic parts of Streaming?

Server, Dac, and ?

I know to many questions?

No more questions, but thanks I'm learning!

Trying to figure out the advantages of Streaming, and, what if the music I like is available from Audirvana, Spotify,etc.....  

Allante93!

The key elements of streaming your own music are 

1. Physical storage for the music files: hard disk or solid state drive, either in a computer, or NAS - network attached storage - which in effect is a mini computer dedicated to making storage available to users of the network.
2. software to "serve" the music files to the next unit in the chain, sitting on device where the files are stored. For Naim and many other music machines this needs to be of the type known as a uPNP server. There are many, with some popularly discussed in these forums.
3. A 'renderer' that converts the music file into a digital stream in real time, representing the music.
4. A DAC to convert the digital stream to analog that can go to the amp.

Naim 'streamers' like the ND5XS, NDX etc combine 3 and 4, although the digital output is also accessible if anyone wants to use a better DAC than the internal one. Most people seem to use a dedicared NAS for 1, incorporating 2.

the Unitiserve I believe combines all these (I havent used one)

Audirvana is rendering software (the software part of 3), and if the storage (1) is in the same computer, uPnP software is not needed as Audirvana can take the files direct from the hard HDD/SSD, in effect combing 1,2 & 3. Melco is like this as well, but only with compatible DACs I believe (received wisdom)

online streaming effectivelyntakes the place of 1 & 2, but requires the renderer to have suitable software to access each individual service.

hope that helps!

Some years into this Odyssey now, I started with a US to rip my 2000+ CDs and I consider it one of the best Naim products ever. 

While my main interest now is to add 24 bit recordings to my collection, and everything is available on NAS into NDS, I still retain the US. I quite often buy secondhand CDs of material which has not been released in 24 bit. These cost half nothing and the US makes ripping a 'no hassle', always available, experience. It also forms the backbone of a fallback system connected to Preamp via V1DAC. 

In my view, far too many people focus on how to find a cheaper way to achieve what the US achieves, and overlook the simplicity of how it achieves it.