Really shocked - suggestions/ideas requested.

Is it possible to tell whether the package had been opened at some point during transit? When travelling around America I've seen e.g. guitar cases being opened and evidence of pickups having been removed, presumably by security/law enforcement.

Dear Mark,

as one who has shipped and/or received an awful number of packages, I wish I could be of some help; but I am not sure I have yet understood how things go with shipments: namely, what types of damage can a trip cause. Does self-unscrewing of screws counts, or is it mainly the fault and responsibility of those who have assembled the unit? 

I don't want to discuss the hypothesis of poor assemblage by some Naim employee (in Austria they have a say for things that are doomed by failure, they call them made on Monday morning), but I know that everything is possible. In my experience, opening a case with a courier – if you're a private subject and not, say, a company with a subscription and dense traffic, hence a customer to value – is perfectly pointless: used items, without invoice and a sure price/value, are worth something like €4/Kg in case of loss or destruction, and I don't want to even begin to imagine the amount of discouraging procedures one has to face if he wants to have a damage acknowledged.

I see two reasonable paths: Naim finds and instructs a local laboratory to receive the unit and fix all the screws; or, if the units works, the buyer has the job done by a trusted technician, and you can share the cost. As for Dave's hypothesis, I am more and more amazed at the degree of paranoia that is oppressing the circulation of people and goods around the world, but mainly in some parts of the world; but repellent as it seems to me, the idea that private goods are opened and manipulated with no thanks and explanations by virtue of the myth of 'security', cannot be excluded.

Best

Max

Was the video really of your old SN??? Maybe he's just trying to runs a scam, or something....

Adam Zielinski posted:

Was the video really of your old SN??? Maybe he's just trying to runs a scam, or something....

That must be it alright, thank goodness, I was momentarily just beginning to consider as a minute possibility that perhaps, just, perhaps that Naim were not totally infallible, but that explains it, yes that explains it. 

I'll sleep better tonight now. 

SJB

Mark

I recall a thread quite a few years ago concerning the fact a particular Naim pre amp sounds awful if the PCB is screwed tightly to the case. In fact I'm 99% certain Chris West stated, when he serviced this particular item he didn't fully tighten all the screws.

When you consider Naims top flight pre amps and CD players have the PCB's floating about on springs, it makes sense not to secure the electronics to a resonant piece of aluminium.

Perhaps Naim don't tighten the screws to any great degree as a matter of policy. Or if the amp had a previous owner, perhaps they loosened the screws.

If there's a screw rattling about box, I wouldn't turn it on untill I'd removed it, short circuiting the tracks on the PCB wouls be a real posibility. But, if the screws just appear not to be tightend, I wouldn't be too concerned.

However, I suspect the new owner will want the PCB screwed down, sooner than later.

I doubt you can blame Fedex for the loose screws.

I've had 2 naim pieces that had loose screws after being shipped to me - a 150x and flatcap 2x.  Both performed admirably anyway.

Sent the video to the Naim North America distributor up in Montreal; he indicated as stated above that the screws should NOT be tightened down all the way because of the floating PCBs - so now the question becomes (and will be asked) "how 'not tightened' is 'not tightened enough'"? The purchaser hand tightened them down with an Allen wrench and obviously replaced the 3 that were floating about...so it sounds like he needs to back them off  a tad. He indicated there were others that he couldn't get to, and now that appears to be a good thing or he would have tightened them down as well.

I am hopeful that he will be willing to do that and we can call the whole thing done (but something tells me he might try to make a mountain out of a molehill on this and force me to pay for a round trip to Montreal plus repair; $75 an hour is the rate and the tech said it should be one hour). Obviously the screws must have been looser than what should be for them to come off during shipping, and again I cannot fathom how would work themselves that loose given the care and treatment of the unit during my ownership, and the fact that to all appearances they were not loose during any of the times I had moved it, where it had to be rotated in space for packing and such.

All in all a tad embarrassing inasmuch as I advertised it as "pristine" - and the outside is just that.

Even as cynical as I am, I still feel quite sure it is the unit I shipped him.

About 20 years ago my olive preamp (do not recall model number) arrived DOA from the UK to my dealer. Unit was shipped to AV Options for repair (solder from power supply was cold joint) - Ricki don't lose that number - and arrived back with two loose screws rattling around the chassis. These were traced to one of the circuit boards which I inserted and tightened down.

Was certainly not impressed with initial quality control or repair. Must have been an after wine lunch (sorry only applies to Devialet) or a pre-bank holiday weekend long lunch at the pub prior to assembly.

DrMark posted:

the question I have is how the hell do these things come loose?

Thermal expansion / contraction, hard bumps along the way - I know this intimately as I have seen UPS handling (if you generously refer to it as such) manage to loosen screws that were factory-spec* tight before the lid went on. And this applies to Naim as well as non-Naim equipment (including musical instruments, PC cases, etc.).

At the end of the day, the screws will be no tighter upon arrival than they were when they left their destination; the common suggestion that LOCTITE might resolve this fails to account for wear and tear on the screw / bolt heads as a consequence.

Best option? Have your dealer look it over before shipping, or, alternately, send it for a paid-for service / lookover to AV Options en route to its destination. It may be worth the money.

* - We made good use of torque wrenches at NANA for this very purpose.

fatcat posted:

Mark

I recall a thread quite a few years ago concerning the fact a particular Naim pre amp sounds awful if the PCB is screwed tightly to the case. In fact I'm 99% certain Chris West stated, when he serviced this particular item he didn't fully tighten all the screws.

 

I doubt you can blame Fedex for the loose screws.

In the case of the NAC 102, Loctite was used to insure that the screws would not move in transit; this was part of the Naim factory service bulletin.

As for FedEx, I JUST dealt with this very problem on a friend's multi-effect unit that was shipped to me to look over. I would not trust anything to overground shippers without suitable insurance for the inevitable screwup (pun intended).

A company I worked for used to ship encyrption devices to customer all over the world. Each unit was about the cost of a 552 and we had 8000 in the field with no user serviceable parts so they all had to come back to Belgium regularly for battery replacements and so forth.

All I can say is that we went through a few years of DHL, then TNT, then FedEx, then UPS and they were as bad as each other. We used to have shock lables on the boxes that turn from pink to blue if the box has been roughly handled. I think the rate of boxes arriving with blue shock labels was 100% so we had to remove those to sotp customer rejecting them. Even so, the DOA of the units (tested before packing) was almost 20% at one stage. We sent the head of logistics out to do on-site observations of the carriers and the result was "this is a lost cause - care labels mean foxtrot alpha to these clowns. Unless we do like Amazon and take care of global delivery ourselves this equipment stands no chance.".

I've recently had a very bad experience sending my 250.2 back to the UK for DRing but another kind of carrier incompetence (box was okay).

Not had any luck ever claiming insurance either. You pay a fortune and unless the box vanishes or the plane goes down they just point to fact that you could have packed it badly or intentionally sent a broken item. To the extent that I figure why bother paying (and in fact didn't on my SCDR).

FZ - I know what you mean about the insurance; and I anticipate a lot of push back there. As I said above, I hope he can back off the bolts that he tightened and leave the others alone, and this obviate the need for FedEx to pay for anything. When he spoke to Christ West at AV Options, he was told that at present they are backlogged on work and not taking anything right now (or I guess it would just get backlogged and sit for a while), so it would need to go to Montreal.

And to be fair, it would be as easy as it gets to take a broken unit, ship it it, claim the damage was done in transit, and then we split the insurance money. Lots of scumbags out there willing to do that. And of course we honest folks pay for it.

And this is the kind of fine handy work that FedEx delivered when I received my 250-DR a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately the shipper had double boxed and the inner Naim box was fine, as was the unit itself operationally. But the outer box was SOAKED as from sitting in water. I immediately opened a claim, both the driver and I took pictures, and fortunately didn't have to take it any further.

Needless to say I was hotter than a pistol when he brought this mess to me, and I really laid into the driver, pointing out to him that unless you are shipping rubber duckies, most things do not fare well with water.

I once sold a Naim unit, in near mint condition, which sent off only to have the purchaser claim the top was scratched. Said he wanted to teturn it. (Now this  is a bit of an aside, but important knowledge: I disputed - but  word against mine and the online auction site's unpublished policy is that in disputed cases the seller must accept the returning, regardless of any declared seller's policy on returns. Buyer has to pay the return postage, and seller returns the full omount of original payment, so in effect the sender pays the outward postage, and the auction site  refunds the selling fee. The auction site thinks that's fair, though they ignore the  fact that the seller has also lost the Paypal fees. They do NOT investigate - and don't even take into account the evidence offered to them, and buyer didn't even offer any photos, though of course that wouldn't be proofit arrived scratched. Since then I have become much more wary about the risks of selling high value stuff that way.) however after the auction site said he could return it and I must refund, he didn't! And he even posted good feedback!!! So I'm convinced it was a scam and what he actually wanted me to do is offer a partial refund an he keep it, and was stuck when I raised a dispute.

From the sound of it this one is different as it seems the screws can indeed come loose - which is really a design fault: they either should be locked properly on manufacture (and after service), or a better system devised like fully floating withonly transit screws that can be affixed like CD players.

The sprung feature is news to me, and explains declared sensitivity to type of support: presumably well damped, (or is resonant suspension contributory to PRaT?!)

Innocent Bystander posted:

From the sound of it this one is different as it seems the screws can indeed come loose - which is really a design fault: they either should be locked properly on manufacture (and after service), or a better system devised like fully floating withonly transit screws that can be affixed like CD players.

 

+1

 It’s very poor engineering to rely on untightened screw to provide free movement of the PCB,  Naim obviously employ some top notch electrical engineers but it makes you wonder if that’s the case re mechanical engineers. As an ex mechanical design engineer, I’d say it’s a definite no, no.

 To allow movement of the PCB on existing equipment, it would be a better option to use longer screws. IE screws that are long enough not to clamp the PCB when they are fully tightened into the hole. It may not look good to have screws raised above the PCB, but loose fitting fibre washers could be used for cosmetic purposes.

 On yet to be designed equipment, it wouldn’t cost that much to enlarge the PCB mounting hole and use spacer/washer to stop the screw clamping the PCB.

In the past I too had a SH FC delivered rattling with what turned out to be 2 loose PCB screws, I was also able to refit the screws and all was well

I work in the telecoms industry and once had a v. costly comms device turn up direct from the vendor with a tire track across the box, I kid you not

During the tests with shipping encryption devices to customers worldwide and having no luck with any of the carriers, our head office did a local pickup test. FexEx had a service where a shipment could be "simulated". Real box, shipping labels and everything but the airway bill number is registered as a "Do Not Ship" because the purpose is to test efficiency and handling locally at one end. Well, to simulat the weight of this EUR 20K device a mossy brick from one of the gardens on the SWIFT campus outside Brussels was selected and packed. Unfortunatly, FedEx could not even manage to get their simulated shipment service right and it was sent out to a major Japanese bank as the replacement to their other unit. Box gets all the way to their data centre outside Tokyo and their engineer opens it up to slot the new device into their rack and of course Whisky Tango Foxtrot? Why is ther a mossy brick in ths box and did we really pay EUR 20K for it?

Luckily they saw the funny side.

Mark - I know it must be unsettling for both you and the purchaser!  Clearly YOU did nothing wrong.  That said, the buyer would like a proper unit, surely.  If it were me, I would feel comfortable (after talking it over with Chris W. who is a saint for helping with such stuff) unscrewing the main board, fishing out the screws, and putting it back together.

If the SN2 is going to be sitting on a hi fi rack, I would not worry too much about it going forward.  I guess in its current state I'd just worry that the loose screws might short something(s).  Despite the intricacies of modern electronics, a careful person it seems should be able to unscrew the board, retrieve the screws, and replace them 'semi-tight' to satisfaction.  

All of the other alternatives seem rather untenable.

If I were the purchaser I'd be asking to return it for a full refund. I wouldn't expect to pay a few thousand and then have screws coming loose. I'm surprised he is not screaming at you and you seem to have a very understanding chap on the other end.

I would always worry about what else was "loose" but not apparent. My acoustcia nervous is bad enough with fully working equipment. 

SJB

I must have been very lucky: in ten years, and tenths of shipments both ways, I can count just one CD5 (inside an apparently undamaged box), to which I had to screw the front plate of the drawer in place and clean the cover a little. Perhaps the lesson behind all this is that shipment companies are technically (and culturally) equipped to transport pieces of stone, dead animals, mattresses; but not delicate objects. And that, perhaps, we should very patiently learn to limit the width of our second hand market radius to where we can drive and collect or deliver personally.

Internet and the 'globalisation' have opened up fantastic possibilities re: buying and selling things, but the weakest link in the chain remains: as long as couriers employ people who don't give a holy s**t about what they do, who are paid for their speed not for the quality of their job (there's the legal office for that), and who have probably absurd working hours and time schedules, the buyer and the seller will have to rely on good luck.

The amount of rage, frustration and wasted time one has to deal with when a shipment goes wrong (a shipment for which someone has paid) is depressing; there are two solutions for this: a) buy new; b) buy locally. The world seems to be planning to return to walls and borders anyway, so why bother.

Mark, I know I am not being of much help with this, but I understand your feelings; if it can be of any consolation (and you know why), couriers are not bad here, and there's a very lively market of used, good HiFi within a small area.

Best

Max

Massimo Bertola posted:

I must have been very lucky: in ten years, and tenths of shipments both ways, I can count just one CD5 (inside an apparently undamaged box), to which I had to screw the front plate of the drawer in place and clean the cover a little. Perhaps the lesson behind all this is that shipment companies are technically (and culturally) equipped to transport pieces of stone, dead animals, mattresses; but not delicate objects. And that, perhaps, we should very patiently learn to limit the width of our second hand market radius to where we can drive and collect or deliver personally.

Internet and the 'globalisation' have opened up fantastic possibilities re: buying and selling things, but the weakest link in the chain remains: as long as couriers employ people who don't give a holy s**t about what they do, who are paid for their speed not for the quality of their job (there's the legal office for that), and who have probably absurd working hours and time schedules, the buyer and the seller will have to rely on good luck.

The amount of rage, frustration and wasted time one has to deal with when a shipment goes wrong (a shipment for which someone has paid) is depressing; there are two solutions for this: a) buy new; b) buy locally. The world seems to be planning to return to walls and borders anyway, so why bother.

Mark, I know I am not being of much help with this, but I understand your feelings; if it can be of any consolation (and you know why), couriers are not bad here, and there's a very lively market of used, good HiFi within a small area.

Best

Max

Not perhaps too difficult to consider if you live in a big city, but for buyer, if you live somewhere remote, as I do, where there isn't a hifi shop (let alone a Naim dealer) within less than 4 hours travel each way,  with significant cost, and return not always possible on the same day, that would be very limiting. And for sellers, the market would be restricted in a similar way. 

yes, I recently bought a pair of secondhand speakers that required a day's travel each way (so overnight stop as well), and cost me best part of £400, as well as the time - but I can't do that every time I want to buy something.

I've even bought transatlantic without hiccup, the only problem I've ever had being the one I cited earlier.

Sloop John B posted:

If I were the purchaser I'd be asking to return it for a full refund. I wouldn't expect to pay a few thousand and then have screws coming loose. I'm surprised he is not screaming at you and you seem to have a very understanding chap on the other end.

I would always worry about what else was "loose" but not apparent. My acoustcia nervous is bad enough with fully working equipment. 

 

SJB

I agree entirely. That or paying an authorised dealer to return it to 100% condition.

Even then the buyer may feel the resale value potentially reduced if a future buyer asks about repairs etc. He must be very understanding.

G

GraemeH posted:

Sloop John B posted:

If I were the purchaser I'd be asking to return it for a full refund. I wouldn't expect to pay a few thousand and then have screws coming loose. I'm surprised he is not screaming at you and you seem to have a very understanding chap on the other end.

I would always worry about what else was "loose" but not apparent. My acoustcia nervous is bad enough with fully working equipment. 

 

SJB

I agree entirely. That or paying an authorised dealer to return it to 100% condition.

Even then the buyer may feel the resale value potentially reduced if a future buyer asks about repairs etc. He must be very understanding.

G

I don't see why anybody should be paying anything to get the PCB screws tightened. (or is it loosened). The dealer Dr Mark bought it from should fix it FOC.

I don't think that will happen, so, if I was Dr Mark, I'd advise his buyer, cost for Naim dealer to retighten to original spec would be $75. I'd offer to refund $75 and suggest buyer gets the work done himself. I know he'd be $75 down, but it might be the easiest solution.

Resale value might icrease. Advert could read "PCB installation recently checked out by official Naim dealer and brought back to original spec"

What was strange is that the North American distributor said the only place that could do it is by them in Montreal. I asked about a qualified place local to the purchaser (he lives right in SF, so a major metropolitan area) and I was told no, it had to be them, which of course entails a round trip to/from Montreal from the west coast, which given what has happened is as worrisome (or literally twice as worrisome) as the original trip. Then the shipping plus repair bill would be submitted to FedEx claims for hopeful reimbursement. I called them again today to update them on the situation. I also spoke with the auction site.

He also told me that AV Options in ONLY authorized by Naim in the Chicago area, which I found a bit odd. (But as I said, they are backlogged so not an option at this time.) Given that the unit is out of warranty, all I would want is any qualified person to check it - were I still in Dallas my buddy who sold Naim is fully competent and I would have no qualms about him doing it.

However, I might broach the fact with the NA distributor that this whole thing of screws coming loose in transit is a bit preposterous for such equipment that had never been opened (till this event) or mishandled (FedEx notwithstanding) - I just did a tally; I have owned 14 pieces of Naim gear in my life, exactly half new, and half used, and I have been their customer since 1998. Sure it is not under warranty, but given the circumstances all around I don't think them performing a check on a 6 year old unit for free as far as the screws is asking too much. Should they determine anything else is wrong, then of course that would be another story.  I'll almost guarantee that nothing else is amiss.

Of course if he wants his money back I would, since we have both been very cordial to each other - but as with anything like this the return shipping cost would be on him.  Then I would get it serviced/checked out and sell again.

I have to chuckle at those who would "scream" at me - that would likely engender a "f*** off" response since I sent a perfectly fine unit to you, and then dump the whole claims and repair in your lap. It's amazing what being nice and working with someone will do...and he realizes I am not out to rip him off or pull a fast one on him, nor him on me. His leverage is simply that I am an honest & fair person who tries to treat others as I would want to be treated, because beyond that he has none...save for negative feedback on the auction site, which falls in the "BFD" category. I could just as easily accuse him of having tinkered with the unit to get money back - so that sword cuts both ways. But I think he is telling the truth...it's a case of bad luck for both of us.

Buying used and shipping 3,000 miles cross country entails risk for both parties - that's why he got a SN for less than half of original cost, and why I insured it for a little more than he paid. If a buyer can't accept that risk, then as someone said, only buy new or only buy locally. You don't get dealership level service recourse buying used from a private individual. We have both been very nice to each other, and "screaming" has not been necessary. We will work it out because we both are honest folks.

He has plugged it in and said it sounds great, and I know it does because it sounded great before I packed it. I even used it as a preamp with the newly arrived 250 (see box pics above) before I packed it. I also used the DAC, and except for the tape I used every input, so I know it is in full working order.

Believe me I wish the damn thing had made a noise when I was packing it - I could have opened it and not knowing any better about floating PCBs replaced/tightened the screws and no one would be the wiser about any of it. (Because I would have thought that was the proper procedure.) The whole fact that these have come loose is just incredible to me. Were it my first piece of Naim gear I'd be tempted to think "What shite this stuff is", but I know better.

Personally knowing the history of that unit he'd be foolish to send it back - it has always been babied and that is why the title of this thread has the word "shocked" in it. You can look at the case and see there is not a mar or anything of the sort on it...truly flawless appearance. And he can have his money back (once the unit were to arrive here and pass my inspection) or we can arrange something else - and I will get FedEx to pay for it...that is where any "screaming" needs to be directed...because they are the f*** ups on all this, not him, and not me. (Actually after FedEx, the next most culpable party is...dare I say it...Naim. OK, so I am a heretic.) This should NOT have happened to this unit...NFW.

Actually If the information presented in this thread is correct, I would say Fed Ex may not be culpable unless the unit was very clearly marked 'keep this way up' and maybe 'fragile' and if they were informed of, and accepted, the need not to shake nor tip more than a few degrees from horizontal (some carriers must accept, as I have actually seen packages with a tilt telltale device fixed to the packaging - but it was a large box on a pallet, which is rather easier to ensure stay upright. 

And even with those warnings loose screws can work looser with even the gentle vibrations of the most careful motorised transport, including rising upwards against gravity if there is indeed a spring beneath. This means any and every transit rsiks the screw loosening more, until eventually they fall out. If the screws were originally deliberately loose, and not fixed with adhesive so they couldn't rotate, which some suggest here is the case, then the one and only 'culprit is Naim for making it that way, particularly if they haven't warned the customer.