Really shocked - suggestions/ideas requested.

I used the word "screaming" to convey how lucky you are to have such an understanding purchaser. He's well within his rights to be upset, much more upset than you.

I have to chuckle at those who would "scream" at me - that would likely engender a "f*** off" response since I sent a perfectly fine unit to you, and then dump the whole claims and repair in your lap. It's amazing what being nice and working with someone will do...and he realizes I am not out to rip him off or pull a fast one on him, nor him on me. His leverage is simply that I am an honest & fair person who tries to treat others as I would want to be treated, because beyond that he has none...save for negative feedback on the auction site, which falls in the "BFD" category.

I have to say after reading this paragraph I wouldn't be rushing to buy some gear off you, no matter how fair and honest you think you are.

As the purchaser I would expect the seller to correct everything about the unit or refund in full including return shipping, which is what I would do if I was the seller - but then I'm a honest and fair person.......................

SJB

It had "Fragile" on all 6 panels of the box and big UP with arrows on all 4 actual sides. (And THIS SIDE UP on the top.)  As Max said, the emphasis in shipping is on speed, not quality. Just look at the box they brought to me and it tells you really all you need to know.

And I just remembered my n-Vi, so I have actually owned 15 pieces of Naim gear. I know others here have had way more than that, and some even have more than that in their racks right now, but I am still a "good" customer...and it represents a not inconsiderable outlay of my hard earned money on their products through the years.

And I forgot my first CDP was a CD3, so it is 16 - exactly half new.

Sloop John B posted:

I used the word "screaming" to convey how lucky you are to have such an understanding purchaser. He's well within his rights to be upset, much more upset than you.

 

I have to chuckle at those who would "scream" at me - that would likely engender a "f*** off" response since I sent a perfectly fine unit to you, and then dump the whole claims and repair in your lap. It's amazing what being nice and working with someone will do...and he realizes I am not out to rip him off or pull a fast one on him, nor him on me. His leverage is simply that I am an honest & fair person who tries to treat others as I would want to be treated, because beyond that he has none...save for negative feedback on the auction site, which falls in the "BFD" category.

I have to say after reading this paragraph I wouldn't be rushing to buy some gear off you, no matter how fair and honest you think you are.

As the purchaser I would expect the seller to correct everything about the unit or refund in full including return shipping, which is what I would do if I was the seller - but then I'm a honest and fair person.......................

 

SJB

And that's because you are (A) clearly not equipped to buy used since you indicate you expect dealer service & warranty, and (B) only reading the part you want, since the buyer and I are working on it, and if he wants his money back I will give it to him provided the unit arrives to me in good stead. But then, he didn't come at me like a screaming jerk either. He inquired like a gentleman, and I have responded in kind. And the only loss he might incur is return shipping...which is usually the case even with most companies.

Or he can send it to Montreal, get it checked and repaired, and I will pay and hope to recoup from the carrier. Or if experts indicate it can be remedied there, then we might do that, because obviously more shipping isn't going to do anyone or the SN any good. For crissakes, I'll even buy him a damned torque wrench if that's what it takes.

WTF more can do? I mean seriously, what do you expect more than that? That completely fulfills the last snarky sentence in your post above - the guy is on a business trip and we will reconvene on Monday and decide amicably a way forward from there.

I am being fair and honest. Selling used incurs risks on both sides. (See one of the portions of post above that you apparently missed.) If you want brand new with a dealer warranty, then go buy new. Often I can't afford that, so I take my chances on the used market. And this gentleman has done the same, and he is not going to get screwed (no pun intended.) Thankfully he isn't a jerk. And neither am I. We are communicating, and I told him I would stand by him in this ordeal.

I paid for insurance. And since he is in possession of the unit, I could just offload the headache on him, since he also paid for the shipping. But I am working WITH him.

But if you come at me with aggression and scream at me, then I might reasonably assume you are trying to scam me, by claiming for something that you did, and I'll tell you to go pound sand up your arse. That has been tried before by people where they get something by mail, and in this case they could loosen a screw, complain, ask for money off, get it, and pocket their "discount." I know it was in perfect order when I sent it. He believes me. And I believe him when he tells me what the situation was when he got it. But you're the one with his panties twisted in a knot. Go figure.

Take a Xanax dude...we're going to work this out between us. But I will tell him you suggest he start yelling at me - makes complete sense given the civil exchanges we have had so far.

Actually, If I bought something and it was faulty, I'd expect to incur no loss, so if the only option was to retrun it for a refund I would expect the refund to also cobpver the return postage: why should I be out of pocket if the seller tries to offload rubbish on me? I know the last point doesn't apply to this particular case, but the principle is the same.

The best thing of course is to convince the buyer that it is actually no-one's direct fault but a design limitation (you don't want the buyer to become concerned that Naim is dodgy and makes badly designed products, even if the comments made on this thread are true and the loose screws are effectively bad design) - then if he still wants it some compromise like sharing the cost may work. But definitely trying to keep amicable is best.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Naim ship everything from Salisbury to all over the world? Literally thousands and thousands of miles. I would think that there would be a huge percentage of returns if screws were coming loose willy nilly on the PCB boards.

I would hope that Naim has implemented a fix for such problems if they indeed exist. Loctite the screws to the proper torque setting for one, to make sure things don't come loose in transit. If no such precaution exist, that would be very shortsighted, disappointing, and surprising for a company that portrays itself as a state of the art, ultra high quality producing manufacturer.

Maybe Naim should address these concerns pronto to the members of this site and to the owners of their electronics.

That's a fair question BL - as you point out they ship all over the world. I am just at a loss as to how this could happen. As someone pointed out, there are engineered solutions to this that would seem to preclude it ever happening. I wonder what percentage of products have these floating boards - presumably many if that is the way to limit vibration effects when in use. If it is a small minority of product then that might explain - that or this was just a unit that the screws were left extra loose for whatever reason...inasmuch as there were 3 it seems to point to a QC issue on this particular piece.

OTOH, FedEx seems to not be doing a good job based on the last 2 Naim shipments I have had with them, one in each direction. I literally couldn't have packed it any better than I did, with double boxing, bubble wrap, etc. I do cringe when something has to go that far - more days is more opportunity for the carrier to screw things up. Fortunately the one to me was OK despite the obvious lack of care exercised by FedEx. Had there been a problem, I would not have expected the shipper to cover anything, as it was not his fault but rather the carrier...and he insured the package as did I. That's why we get insurance. And I called him and told him about it (for his edification more than anything) and just as I have done with this gentleman he was willing to move forward on a claim, which I had opened as a precaution. But the inner box was OK, as was the 250, so no further action was warranted.

I think FedEx is off my list as a shipper...but then again, I don't think UPS or USPS is any better. And the auction site is aware and sounded like they would be helpful as well. But the buyer will contact me when he can and we will move forward from there.

badlands posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Naim ship everything from Salisbury to all over the world? Literally thousands and thousands of miles. I would think that there would be a huge percentage of returns if screws were coming loose willy nilly on the PCB boards.

I would hope that Naim has implemented a fix for such problems if they indeed exist. Loctite the screws to the proper torque setting for one, to make sure things don't come loose in transit. If no such precaution exist, that would be very shortsighted, disappointing, and surprising for a company that portrays itself as a state of the art, ultra high quality producing manufacturer.

Maybe Naim should address these concerns pronto to the members of this site and to the owners of their electronics.

 

They do but there is a big difference with bulk shipments. I used Fedex to get a whole system over to Japan but I had it on an aircraft pallet and the whole think (6 Naim boxes and 2 speakers) vacuum wrapped and tied down. A lot of bulk shipments will be similar.

Just to clarify, these screws are not really loose loose. Just not tight. The boxes need to be really abused in shipping to come undone or even turn. And I think we all have experiences that show that boxes are universally abused to extremes unless part of a bulk shipment.

Naim gear is notoriously less fragile that most (CD pucks and transport bolts aside).

Currier culpability seems a moot point in the case at hand. The package was delivered with no apparent evidence of mishandling. FedEx and their insurer have no responsibility for 'loose' screws that may have come detached during the transit process. Case closed on that end and opening an insurance claim seems unjustified. Previous experiences with poor handling by FedEx or other couriers have no bearing on the present case.

Manufacturer culpability seems a moot point as well. The product was delivered from the dealer to the original buyer in good working order. Regardless of age, there is no warranty extension beyond the original purchaser. Case closed there as well.

Should something go awry during a properly handled shipment, that's simply one of the risks of selling on the second-hand market and the seller ought to assume responsibility. No doubt dealers have to deal with these issues, and in this case the seller has effectively become a s/h dealer.

joerand posted:

Currier culpability seems a moot point in the case at hand. The package was delivered with no apparent evidence of mishandling. FedEx and their insurer have no responsibility for 'loose' screws that may have come detached during the transit process. Case closed on that end and opening an insurance claim seems unjustified. Previous experiences with poor handling by FedEx or other couriers have no bearing on the present case.

Manufacturer culpability seems a moot point as well. The product was delivered from the dealer to the original buyer in good working order. Regardless of age, there is no warranty extension beyond the original purchaser. Case closed there as well.

Should something go awry during a properly handled shipment, that's simply one of the risks of selling on the second-hand market and the seller ought to assume responsibility. No doubt dealers have to deal with these issues, and in this case the seller has effectively become a s/h dealer.

Exactly.

feeling_zen posted:

Just to clarify, these screws are not really loose loose. Just not tight. The boxes need to be really abused in shipping to come undone or even turn.

Quite the substantive statement. The screws holding the PCB's successively turned enough to become dislodged during multiple events of abuse, or was it a single abuse where the screws were outright stripped from their moorings? Inquiring minds want to know the truth.

I think using suitable shouldered screws to secure the PCB’s would solve this issue. The screws can be fully tightened & prevented from coming loose with Loctite but the PCB would not be gripped.

DrMark posted:

Sloop John B posted:

I used the word "screaming" to convey how lucky you are to have such an understanding purchaser. He's well within his rights to be upset, much more upset than you.

 

I have to chuckle at those who would "scream" at me - that would likely engender a "f*** off" response since I sent a perfectly fine unit to you, and then dump the whole claims and repair in your lap. It's amazing what being nice and working with someone will do...and he realizes I am not out to rip him off or pull a fast one on him, nor him on me. His leverage is simply that I am an honest & fair person who tries to treat others as I would want to be treated, because beyond that he has none...save for negative feedback on the auction site, which falls in the "BFD" category.

I have to say after reading this paragraph I wouldn't be rushing to buy some gear off you, no matter how fair and honest you think you are.

As the purchaser I would expect the seller to correct everything about the unit or refund in full including return shipping, which is what I would do if I was the seller - but then I'm a honest and fair person.......................

 

SJB

And that's because you are (A) clearly not equipped to buy used since you indicate you expect dealer service & warranty, and (B) only reading the part you want, since the buyer and I are working on it, and if he wants his money back I will give it to him provided the unit arrives to me in good stead. But then, he didn't come at me like a screaming jerk either. He inquired like a gentleman, and I have responded in kind. And the only loss he might incur is return shipping...which is usually the case even with most companies.

Or he can send it to Montreal, get it checked and repaired, and I will pay and hope to recoup from the carrier. Or if experts indicate it can be remedied there, then we might do that, because obviously more shipping isn't going to do anyone or the SN any good. For crissakes, I'll even buy him a damned torque wrench if that's what it takes.

WTF more can do? I mean seriously, what do you expect more than that? That completely fulfills the last snarky sentence in your post above - the guy is on a business trip and we will reconvene on Monday and decide amicably a way forward from there.

I am being fair and honest. Selling used incurs risks on both sides. (See one of the portions of post above that you apparently missed.) If you want brand new with a dealer warranty, then go buy new. Often I can't afford that, so I take my chances on the used market. And this gentleman has done the same, and he is not going to get screwed (no pun intended.) Thankfully he isn't a jerk. And neither am I. We are communicating, and I told him I would stand by him in this ordeal.

I paid for insurance. And since he is in possession of the unit, I could just offload the headache on him, since he also paid for the shipping. But I am working WITH him.

But if you come at me with aggression and scream at me, then I might reasonably assume you are trying to scam me, by claiming for something that you did, and I'll tell you to go pound sand up your arse. That has been tried before by people where they get something by mail, and in this case they could loosen a screw, complain, ask for money off, get it, and pocket their "discount." I know it was in perfect order when I sent it. He believes me. And I believe him when he tells me what the situation was when he got it. But you're the one with his panties twisted in a knot. Go figure.

Take a Xanax dude...we're going to work this out between us. But I will tell him you suggest he start yelling at me - makes complete sense given the civil exchanges we have had so far.

Obviously I'm using the word  "screaming " metaphorically not literally. 

I'm saying you're lucky the purchaser is so understanding.

Live long and prosper, brother  

SJB  

 Moderated Post:  minor edit..

 I Know one doesn't want to get in to questions about moderation on a particular thread but I am a bit confused as to why a direct quote from the OP which appears in the thread originally and quoted above is left and my use of it is moderated.

 I agree it is language I would never use but that was the whole point of my post   

SJB

I would slightly disagree with your statements Joe. On the surface they are correct, but there is also the "other" story.

I know it is out of warranty. But there had to have been something wrong from the get go for these screws to come loose - so it was not delivered in proper condition originally. It couldn't have been - the defect was just not apparent. And in no way to I think this is indicative of typical Naim build quality - see my original comment when the buyer asked me about the noise, before he sent me the video. Sitting in an audio rack and being boxed and moved by me personally once did not shake these screws loose alone...even with subsequent apparent mishandling by FedEx.  They had to have been "defective" from the get go.

When I ran my own business, I not infrequently did things for customers that I didn't "have" to do....simply because it generated good faith, and especially with my better long-term clients. And especially when the cost to the business was nearly negligible - ie, a little of my time.

Obviously it wasn't overtly experiencing an issue when I sent it; if that were the case it would have been too easy to remedy on my own, although not knowing about floating PCBs I wouldn't have known to leave them not tight...but the point it there would be no reason to send it that way had the defect been in play at that time. It would have been too easy to avoid all the drama that has ensued, so it is pretty obvious it wasn't doing it at shipping.

And the point of citing a prior shipment is that is demonstrates a culture of lack of care in shipping...it is not a one-off event. Perhaps FedEx should eschew shipping expensive audio gear, since they cannot demonstrate an ability to do it properly. In fact I spoke to my current Naim dealer (who was not involved with this piece at all) and he refuses to use FedEx for anything that can break because he has had too many bad experiences with them. He only uses them for stuff like cables.

And again, while I do not it to be the case for even one second, it could have been a scam run on the other end by going for a partial refund - the buyer did mention that as a possible solution, but I don't think he is being dishonest about it at all. I would prefer to make it right via repair, or refund him; he'd be out return shipping, and I would be out the insurance fee, the outbound shipping, RT shipping to Montreal, repair/checkup cost, auction site listing fee, and Paypal fee...all in all about $350. And why wouldn't I submit all that to the insurance? The worst they can do is say no...and I will bet you a cup of coffee that if it goes that route I will get something from FedEx, even if not a full reimbursement.

And the obvious and simplest solution will be to check with an expert and if it is literally as easy as backing off the screws he tightened a turn or half turn, or with the use of a torque device that I would gladly buy him, then if he is OK with that, then we can go that route - remember, it was not me who went and tightened every mounting screw on the unit (save the ones he couldn't get to because of stacked PCBs) in addition to the 3 that were fully loose. All I suggested is that he open the case (after consulting with an expert on what that entailed) to see what was loose.

DrMark posted:

... unless you are shipping rubber duckies, most things do not fare well with water.

THAT old prejudice.

Many, many years ago I was enjoying a dem of Dahlquists and ElectroCompaniet (OK - I made that up) in the depths of Noel Cloney's Dublin basement premises.

We were interrupted by the loud, irregular but persistent  thud of unholy footsteps. Think Durin's Bane exiting the Mines of Moria - if so feyly inclined.

Unable to ignore it, and our interests piqued, we went to the door - to see a delivery driver tipping the last of a consignment of loudspeakers (at least - when at the top of their trajectory) down into the basement well - avoiding any use of the thoughtfully provided steps.

The driver was bewildered when we declined to accept - and had to lug the remnants back UP to the street.

GraemeH posted:

Sloop John B posted:

If I were the purchaser I'd be asking to return it for a full refund. I wouldn't expect to pay a few thousand and then have screws coming loose. I'm surprised he is not screaming at you and you seem to have a very understanding chap on the other end.

I would always worry about what else was "loose" but not apparent. My acoustcia nervous is bad enough with fully working equipment. 

 

SJB

I agree entirely. That or paying an authorised dealer to return it to 100% condition.

Even then the buyer may feel the resale value potentially reduced if a future buyer asks about repairs etc. He must be very understanding.

G

Funny how we  see these situations. If I was buying this and noticed screws rattling round inside, I'd whip the top off, reinstate the screws, check it was working OK and then be happy. Life's too short to mess about returning stuff if you can fettle it yourself.

Spoke with AV Options & the Naim distributor today - both confirmed that the screws are easily replaced correctly by anyone and that they just need to be a little loose - snug, then back off a little, so the board(s) can float. No specialized tools or training required.

They both agreed that additional shipping is the last thing needed for the piece (as in a round trip to Chicago or Montreal for them to do it is likely less beneficial than self service), and Chris West has seen this before, but this is the first time on a SN that he has heard of it. He also made it pretty clear he has a not so sterling opinion of US shipping companies.  So I will share this with the buyer, and he can decide what it is he wants to do.

Sounds like you're making progress Mark.  I hope that it all settles out satisfactorily.

Mark,

Re your first post on this page, I didn't mean for you to feel defensive about your course of action. I was simply pointing out that there are risks taken when dealing gear on the s/h market. Most of the time it works out fine. Sometimes the seller gets bitten. You're certainly doing your due diligence to resolve the problem in the best manner. Kudos for that.

I've sold several Naim units on Agon (one shipped to Canada) with no issues. I've also sold a few locally on Craigslist. That in mind, my approach now is to first attempt a local sale before advertising on Agon. Saves shipping and transaction fees, so the buyer may pay a little more. I've also had the chance to buy a Naim cable advertised on Agon from a local seller who happened to be a forum member. I picked up the cable in person and was treated to a listening session on 500 level gear in the process. A new friend made that has also become a member of our Seattle listening club.

I realize this offers no resolve for your present conundrum, merely food for thought for the future.

Hi Joe - I list concurrently on CL, but as I even say in my CL ads, I realize the odds of finding someone in Charlotte on CL who actually snows what Naim gear is are really slim, but you never know. I actually had a local guy contact me about my CD5X - he said he was a Linn guy, but he would ask among his audiophile friends, and recognized the CD5X as a great player. That is literally the only response I got - but yes, local is always better if it can be arranged. (Which, incidentally, the CD5X also arrived elsewhere in CA just 2 days ago and based on getting positive feedback apparently made it OK.  And it is CD players I actually worry more about, because of the drawer, laser, etc...not as much a piece where the only real moving parts are the volume and balance knobs. Go figure.)

I do the same with my guitar sales as well, listing on CL in addition to a national site. (Currently trying Reverb for the first time as a seller - used twice as a buyer.) And my FC2X was purchased by a guy in Raleigh, so the shipping only took one day instead of 5-6 for cross country.  Less time = less opportunity for disaster...

I got a hold of the purchaser last night and shared the info I got from the experts, and told him to let me know what he wants to do when he returns from his trip, and that I want him to be happy. He is of a mind (and I agreed with him) that something had to have been amiss at the Naim plant the day this unit was assembled - that perhaps the screws were placed by hand and then some were missed in the "tightening" (now that we know they are not to be truly tight) - but who really knows. I also mentioned that if he had to buy any wrenches for the job should he choose to go that route to let me know and I would send him a check for them.