Audirvana 2.5.2 PCM to DSD upsampling experience

Yes, very impressive and, like you, I haven't bothered with upsampling before.  I've seen a few reports on process usage and heat that I want to check out but otherwise I will keep the upsampling to DSD on.  Only issue I have is that remote volume control can't be used ith DSD playback and I sometimes use my Hugo as a headphone amp using remote volume - easy enough to change the settings though.  It's the best I have ever heard my digital files

Great to read that it's not just my imagination 

I think I'll keep it one for a week and switch back to PCM wthout up sampling and see whether I miss it.

No issues with remote volume control via the V1.

Will check out the processor usage on the Mini and V1.  In theory the V1's processor usage should be lower and Mini's higher. When using DoP and playing a native DSD file, the processor usage on the Mini was a 'whopping' 7%.  Can't think that PCM tonDSD conversion will tax the Mini, let alone something like a Raspberry Pi. 

Happy days.

Interesting stuff. Keep us updated with your thoughts when you switch back to PCM!

That's a good idea, I'll also try it for a week and see how much I miss it.  I've just found myself listening closely to see if I could identify the differences before I realised I was listening to vinyl! 

I am also impressed so far.  

Very interesying thread! Would you post     Screenshot ma of your Audirvana settings in here? Thanks in advance!

Just seen the latest post.  A screenshot of my settings attached. My listening trial continues as not much opportunity to listen so far, mainly due to the thunderstorms.

HTH

Jude

Hmmmm...  I just tried DSD 64,  A 7th Order filter, from my MacMini thru Yellowtec PUC2 Lite USB into my nDAC/555PSDR.  I didn't care for it, after one track, then went back to no up sampling.  Am I doing something wrong?  What filter is preferred?  I have Audirvana+ v 2.5.3

Charlie

I do not think you can feed the Naim Dac with DSD128 or higher via SPDIF, is that right?

With up

Peter Dinh posted:

I do not think you can feed the Naim Dac with DSD128 or higher via SPDIF, is that right?

Naim's product page states that 128 is possible, with the latest firmware released in late 2015

Not sure, mine has been updated to the latest firmware 4.11.8, but I can't play DSD128 via the Gustard U12, although the Isolator is more than capable of doing that, but no sync or hd lights illuminated on the NDAC and no sound. DSD64 has no problem.

CharlieP posted:

Hmmmm...  I just tried DSD 64,  A 7th Order filter, from my MacMini thru Yellowtec PUC2 Lite USB into my nDAC/555PSDR.  I didn't care for it, after one track, then went back to no up sampling.  Am I doing something wrong?  What filter is preferred?  I have Audirvana+ v 2.5.3

Charlie

Firstly I would suggest that one track is a very short test!  On my Hugo the filters sound very different to one another and it took me a couple of hours to settle on A 7th order - I felt it added more substance and attack but other filters had a lighter more open sound - one of them didn't work at all.  Worth playing around to see why suits your dac best and trying lots of different types of music whilst doing it.  On the Hugo I can sample to 128 DSD but I have read of dacs that only go to 64.  The improvement upsampling on my dac, and from most I have read, is significant so it is worth taking the time to experiment and listen

Peter Dinh posted:

Not sure, mine has been updated to the latest firmware 4.11.8, but I can't play DSD128 via the Gustard U12, although the Isolator is more than capable of doing that, but no sync or hd lights illuminated on the NDAC and no sound. DSD64 has no problem.

No experience or knowledge with the NDAC or Gustard.  However, I suggest taking the Gustard out of the equation and try a direct connection via SPDIF from your software player/transport to the NDAC to see whether DSD files play.   I would also check whether the DSD files are strict/genuine DSD encodings (some DSD files appear to be DSD but are not).

HTH

Jude

Jude2012 posted:

Peter Dinh posted:

Not sure, mine has been updated to the latest firmware 4.11.8, but I can't play DSD128 via the Gustard U12, although the Isolator is more than capable of doing that, but no sync or hd lights illuminated on the NDAC and no sound. DSD64 has no problem.

No experience or knowledge with the NDAC or Gustard.  However, I suggest taking the Gustard out of the equation and try a direct connection via SPDIF from your software player/transport to the NDAC to see whether DSD files play.   I would also check whether the DSD files are strict/genuine DSD encodings (some DSD files appear to be DSD but are not).

HTH

Jude

Silly me! Latest Naim DAC spec clearly states that only DSD64 is supported via SPDIF

dayjay posted:

CharlieP posted:

Hmmmm...  I just tried DSD 64,  A 7th Order filter, from my MacMini thru Yellowtec PUC2 Lite USB into my nDAC/555PSDR.  I didn't care for it, after one track, then went back to no up sampling.  Am I doing something wrong?  What filter is preferred?  I have Audirvana+ v 2.5.3

Charlie

Firstly I would suggest that one track is a very short test!  On my Hugo the filters sound very different to one another and it took me a couple of hours to settle on A 7th order - I felt it added more substance and attack but other filters had a lighter more open sound - one of them didn't work at all.  Worth playing around to see why suits your dac best and trying lots of different types of music whilst doing it.  On the Hugo I can sample to 128 DSD but I have read of dacs that only go to 64.  The improvement upsampling on my dac, and from most I have read, is significant so it is worth taking the time to experiment and listen

There is a line of thought that suggests that upsampled PCM is better for Hugo as it internally upsamples to DSD itself anyway. I can't say I fully understand any of this stuff but the blokes discussing it seemed to know their sausages. It was in reference to HQPlayer which may do something different but it was the HQPlayer author was one of the above mentioned blokes.

SJB

Sloop John B posted:

dayjay posted:

CharlieP posted:

Hmmmm...  I just tried DSD 64,  A 7th Order filter, from my MacMini thru Yellowtec PUC2 Lite USB into my nDAC/555PSDR.  I didn't care for it, after one track, then went back to no up sampling.  Am I doing something wrong?  What filter is preferred?  I have Audirvana+ v 2.5.3

Charlie

Firstly I would suggest that one track is a very short test!  On my Hugo the filters sound very different to one another and it took me a couple of hours to settle on A 7th order - I felt it added more substance and attack but other filters had a lighter more open sound - one of them didn't work at all.  Worth playing around to see why suits your dac best and trying lots of different types of music whilst doing it.  On the Hugo I can sample to 128 DSD but I have read of dacs that only go to 64.  The improvement upsampling on my dac, and from most I have read, is significant so it is worth taking the time to experiment and listen

There is a line of thought that suggests that upsampled PCM is better for Hugo as it internally upsamples to DSD itself anyway. I can't say I fully understand any of this stuff but the blokes discussing it seemed to know their sausages. It was in reference to HQPlayer which may do something different but it was the HQPlayer author was one of the above mentioned blokes.

 

SJB

From the white paper on the nDAC, I recall that it does its own upsampling.  In my system, it sounds better (to me) to let nDAC do the upsampling, not Audirvana.  When using a Lavry DA10 years ago, I prefered to upsample in (a much earlier version of) Audirvana.  Likewise with a Halide DAC1, in another system.

I agree one cut is a small sample and inconclusive, but it obviously did not sound like what others are hearing.  Is this a nDAC vs Hugo thing?  I need to look into this more when I have time....

Thanks all for reporting your findings.

Charlie

Have only just got round to trying this... pretty gob smacked to be honest. As mentioned, scale and clarity seem greatly improved. Bass seems tighter. Surprised at the amount of additional detail I can seem to hear as well. I can't decide if I like it or not ha, it just seems like there's so much more attack. I think I'm gonna have to have a play around with these filters :-)

Peter Dinh posted:

Jude2012 posted:

Peter Dinh posted:

Not sure, mine has been updated to the latest firmware 4.11.8, but I can't play DSD128 via the Gustard U12, although the Isolator is more than capable of doing that, but no sync or hd lights illuminated on the NDAC and no sound. DSD64 has no problem.

No experience or knowledge with the NDAC or Gustard.  However, I suggest taking the Gustard out of the equation and try a direct connection via SPDIF from your software player/transport to the NDAC to see whether DSD files play.   I would also check whether the DSD files are strict/genuine DSD encodings (some DSD files appear to be DSD but are not).

HTH

Jude

Silly me! Latest Naim DAC spec clearly states that only DSD64 is supported via SPDIF

Mystery solved. Just seen this detail in the specifications section.  

As a comparison, there's no mention of whether DSD playback is possible on the V1's SPDIF inputs. 

Jude

Well, had more chance to listen this week with Aidirvana 2.5.2 and I'm gonna stick with DSD up sampling and the standard settings.  I'm also not using any of the Audio Unit filtering options that Izoptope offers.

The great thing for folks that like the iTunes sound but not iTunes library is the ability use Core Audio instead of Izotope and Audirvana's library. This occurred to me as I'm slowly migrating away from the iTunes library and placing all tracks in a standard folder that can be used with Audirvana or anything  else (I.e. Non propietary).

Having just received my Hugo back from Chord in the UK having been repaired under warranty I decided to give the DSD up sampling a go and in all honesty cannot hear any discernible difference between this option and no upsampling at all.

Have listened intently to my current favourite tracks on Dianna Kralls "The Girl in the other Room" and noticed no perceptible differences in overall presentation.

Harry

Harry, for what it's worth going from PCM to DSD is transcoding and not up sampling or over sampling. The analogue signal sample formats are completely different and completely differently encoded. DSD64 can of course be over sampled to DSD128

The NDAC and Hugo over sample internally.. This helps the internal filtering process amongst other things.

Over sampling is always an integer multiple of the original sample clock rate. This is achieved by inserting zero value samples between the original sample values (with PCM).

Upsamplimg is a non integer multiple of the original sample rate, and often is best avoided because of floating point rounding errors and the necessary resampling that is required.

Finally I would also avoid transcoding PCM to DSD, as it is an inexact lossy resampling process, but of course if you prefer the sound this way.. then fair enough.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Finally I would also avoid transcoding PCM to DSD, as it is an inexact lossy resampling process, but of course if you prefer the sound this way.. then fair enough.

Simon

Apparently Damien (Audirvana developer) thinks it is a good idea, otherwise he would not spend his efforts to include it in Audirvana?

Simon has a point.

Also, it's not clear whether the V1 receives DSD over PCM (DoP) via either USB of SPDIF or native DSD from Audirvana.  Similarly, it s not clear whether the V1 uses the special edition of Audiphilleo that has DSD128 capability.

Still, technicalities aside, I like what I'mhearing.

Jude

Thanks Simon for your expaination.