Have I been sold the wrong amplifier?

Well, I could make a cheeky remark concerning the Celestion SL6s. They are something of an enigma - receiving rave reviews for their lack of coloration and imaging ability at the time, and yet also sounding (to these ears) dull and flat; I remember thinking at the time, give me "coloured" any day.  For all that, I have owned a few pairs (still have an early mint pair somewhere), usually because they came with other kit I'd been given, and each time, they have sometimes shown a glimmer of brilliance, but never really engaged or let their hair down.  They do need a powerful amp, but most Naim amps were deemed suitable.  However, whether they are the best match to the strengths of a Naim system, I'm not so sure.  

The Si version did improve on the original copper tweeter (part of the reason they sounded like the tweeters weren't working - and their unreliability mean't they often weren't working!) but the overall character was pretty much the same. The good news is that the original SL6 is now deemed a collectible bona fide classic so you may get something back from your original investment.  

Botom line; if you listen mostly to small scale chamber, choral, or vocal works then they may be just the thing.  However, they lack dynamics and balls - they never really let rip, and in my view, you can do better, much better.  You have the right amplifier, but probably the wrong speakers.

All I know of them is that they need a big amplifier to wring any life out of them. I'd suggest selling them and getting a nice pair of modern standmounts to match your excellent amplifier - something like PMC 21s maybe. 

Having listened to these speakers in the past, I totally agree with Richard, they're not a good match for the characteristics for which you buy Naim amplification, but the higher end Naim amplification is a good match for them (i.e. the total overkill on price and dynamics may finally get them to perk up a little bit!).

Electrically they aren't too bad a load, but neither are they particularly easy - I seem to recall the Z(min) is about 4.8Ω.  The XS 2 isn't actually a bad match for them, it'll handle them fine, it just honestly reveals their true nature.  Again Richard is right, they're actually really quite good with small scale chamber and choral work, they just don't work with anything else!

Totally agree with Richard above, a bizarre speaker which while it does have its fans to me sucks the life out of the amplifier, makes the music dull and with a complete lack of dynamics.

The Nait XS is a great little integrated with plenty of punch; it deserves better!

I remember when the SL6s were getting all those rave reviews. I also recall being impressed with them when I heard them at shows. I wanted a pair to put on the end of my then A&R A60.  However my dealer at the time gave me demo that clearly showed they really needed a pre/power amp to bring them to life, something I couldn't afford at the time.  Went for Heybrook HB2s instead and never regretted it. 

The worst speakers I owned-by a royal mile were the SL600, with Aerolam aluminium cabinets. Dull, insipid, lifeless, constipated would be some of the more charitable comments I could make. They were trashed in every possible way by some ancient Leak 2060s and my Tangent RS4s I had to compare them with. Amplication was 42/Hicap into Audio Research D70mk2. Front end was obligatory Linn/Ittok/Karma. Yes, it took real talents to make the electronics sound that bad!

I agree with Huge a  500 power amp would wake them up but at what cost. ?

Hungry Halibut is right just listen to lots of speakers with an easier load.

I have always been disappointed when I had AE1s as they where the same sensitivity as the SL 6.With lower sensitivity speakers I always felt they are holding something back a sort of constipated sound.As Richard says your SL 6 s do something's well but you need to get your hands on some higher sensitivity designs 90 dB or higher.You could get some nice Focal floorstanders on the second hand market.Your amp could easily drive them and they don't fall apart at lower listening levels.

Gigantor posted:

I rang the shop I purchased the speakers from and he said I should never have been sold this amplifier.

One might add - the 'sort of' shop that sold/sells(!) SL6s were unlikely to hold the agency for or think highly in general of Naim.

I'd agree with Richard's "You have the right amplifier, but probably the wrong speakers."

But then I would, wouldn't I?

Tabby Cat, I don't think speaker sensitivity has much to do with it, for instance, the original Lin Kan (Mk 1 & Mk 2) were only 86dB/Watt.

Thank you everyone for your comments.  I was concerned as I have blown up my Amber 50b amplifier four times using these speakers.  I blamed the amplifier. Maybe I was wrong in this assumption. 

I must agree with comments made thus far that voices do sound lovely through these speakers. I can hear bass strings being played and I can tap my finger or foot to the beat but you do have to listen carefully for this sound. Drums and cymbals tend to lack definition and in some albums the cymbals come off a bit harsh. 

I feel reassured that my Nait XS2 will suffice for the short term until I can upgrade the speakers.  My Naim dealer has recommended Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 speakers.  What do forum members think of these speakers please?  They retail for almost $5,000 here in Australia.  I spent $4,000 on the Nait XS2 amplifier and expect to pay another $5,000 for a CD5 XS possibly next year.

Am I heading in the right direction?

I mainly listen to 80's Rock, Pop with a vocal interest.  I have one ACDC album, Back in Black and of course Dire Straits.   Classical CDs number three in total.  I listen to soothing music that is pleasant to listen to as I have PTSD. 

Warm regards,

Paul. 

Gigantor posted:

I feel reassured that my Nait XS2 will suffice for the short term until I can upgrade the speakers.  My Naim dealer has recommended Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 speakers.  What do forum members think of these speakers please?  They retail for almost $5,000 here in Australia.  I spent $4,000 on the Nait XS2 amplifier and expect to pay another $5,000 for a CD5 XS possibly next year.

Am I heading in the right direction?

Don't get overly concerned with the price of speakers relative to the cost of your other components. There are plenty of speakers suitable for your gear that might cost equal to or even far less than your XS2.  The key is getting several contenders into your listening room and then deciding which speakers work best. I'm listening to a circa $5400 SN2 with circa $2200 Totem Sttafs.

Your dealer will have a good idea of what works well as a combination in his shop. He chooses his product portfolio on the basis of maximising successful combinations for the palate in the local area while making a decent return on his investment. Therefore, it seems likely that the SFs would be a good match in his view. He's unlikely to recommend something you wouldn't be happy with, especially if he wants to keep you happy for a cd5xs sale later on!  Personally, I'd get a demo of the complete solution in his store so you have a better understanding of his view of the final solution you're contemplating, if possible.

Here in the UK, Sonus faber tends to run in different circles from Naim. It's unusual, but not unheard of, for a Naim dealer to have both brands. This is because Sonus faber distribution is aligned with audio research, Krell, Martin Logan, Wilson Audio. Naim dealerships tend to run with things like Linn, Spendor, PMC, ATC, Kudos, Neat and Focal. Outside of the U.K. things are probably quite different.

Frank.

Frank +1

Paul, broadly a speaker of around 88-90 dB and not less than a 6 Ohm load should be good. The SFs fit this requirement ( a quick google search reaveals) but are they to your taste with CD5XS,Nait XS2 and Naim Naca5 speaker wires?

Other speakers will also match the criteria. Enjoy choosing the ones that are right for you. ie. matching your amplifier, your hearing, your room, your wallet.

Best,

Chris

Ron Toolsie posted:

The worst speakers I owned-by a royal mile were the SL600, with Aerolam aluminium cabinets. Dull, insipid, lifeless, constipated would be some of the more charitable comments I could make. They were trashed in every possible way by some ancient Leak 2060s and my Tangent RS4s I had to compare them with. Amplication was 42/Hicap into Audio Research D70mk2. Front end was obligatory Linn/Ittok/Karma. Yes, it took real talents to make the electronics sound that bad!

I have had the SL600si for about 20 yrs but never heard the sl600. I love them both with Nait3r, Qute and Moon W5. Obviously suited for a small room but great microdynamics.

Don't get too hung up on any particular specification for speakers, particularly sensitivity.  Sensitivity has everything to do with how loud they go, and little or nothing to do with the quality of the sound they produce.  (If it did control quality, we'd ALL have horn speaker designs with the type of ultra high sensitivity drivers used in cheap car stereo systems!)

For the XS 2 a speaker that is a reasonably benign load will often be beneficial, but even this isn't a hard and fast rule.  (A reasonably benign load for instance could be >4.5Ω Z(min) @ Phase ∠ <60°, but there are many other reasonably benign combinations as well.)

The main thing is to get speakers that suit your room and absolutely most importantly, ones that just sound right to YOU.

If you're in Sydney, go and speak to Audio Genesis - they stock Neat loudspeakers and they're sure to have a pair that will make you smile not only at the sound, but also the price.

A lot of Naim forum members hate the Celestion SL series, but the fact is they needed HUGE amplifiers to come to life.  I had a pair of SL600s driven by the mammoth Audio Research D250-II amplifier (16 power output tubes, 250 watts) and they sounded spectacular.  John Atkinson was running the same rig for a while (also using the ARC SP-10 preamp).  The speakers sounded good with a pair of Naim 135s, but the big tube amp brought out the magic.

Again, good morning and thank you everyone for your posts. 

I received a reply from Naim Audio Australia late last night and they have reassured me that the XS range of amplifiers are a high current amplifiers and are more than capable of driving inefficient speakers.

To the Sydney resident I am a cane toad living in Melbourne.  I was going to have a shot about the last State of Origin league match.  Enough said. Thank you for your advice as well.

i am curious to how loud fellow Naim listeners have their amplifiers turned up.  Our Nait XS2 has no need to go past 9 o'clock on the volume control.

The sound emitted from the speakers is loud enough and I can tap a beat with bass and kick drum though wish the bottom end had a little more oomph.  It is there, but.....

I tend to be a bit of a worrier due to my mental health issues at the moment and would be extremely upset if I had spent good money which I do not have after an amplifier that could not do the job at hand.

On a side note I have learnt that CDX2 has two Burr Brown DACs with eight times over-sampling.  I am looking forward to seeing what the CD5 XS contains.  I am a tech who gets caught up in chasing numbers and with the fact my middle age ears might no longer be able to hear the differences in the latest HIFI components I feel reassured that I have ticked the boxes mentally, analytically.

Warm regards,

Paul.

Gigantor,

I think the best thing you could do to immediately dispel or confirm your lingering doubts that you've been sold the wrong amplifier would be to borrow an amplifier in the same price range as the XS2 .You could then compare and determine what the XS2 does well and what it does not so well. As I suggested to another member - if you think the XS2 doesn't have enough grip, grunt, balls, etc then compare it with something beefy that is reputed to have these characteristics. Until you do that you will be wondering if you made the right choice.

Trust your ears before anything else.

Thank you Iconoclast and others.  You are quite correct.  When I reviewed the XS2 I did compare it against three other amplifiers and its bass response sold me when connected to a pair of Sonos Faber Venere 2.5 speakers.  I do not know if anybody is familiar with the song Telegraph Road by Dire Straits off their Lover Over Gold album, track 1.  There is a storm thunder rumble sound effect at the opening intro.   When listened to via my Celestion  speakers it gave the impression it was outside the room, in the distance.  When listened to via the Sonos Faber speakers it made me look around.  It was if the storm was in the room with you.  I was expecting rain drops to start falling.  It was that dramatic a change.

At present I am second guessing myself after being alarmed by the dealer who sold me the Celestions 26 years ago.  I am now happy with the XS2 amplifier.  I am also hoping that the CD5 XS will live up to my expectations as I possibly should have been offered to listen to a SuperNait 2 when first listening to the XS2.

When I walked into the HIFI shop I was completely green with respect to Naim audio components, their upgrade paths and systems.  This was the first time I had heard of Naim.  I suppose I will have to go back to the HIFI shop and compare a XS2/CD5 XS against a SN2/CDX2 setup.  If I can walk away happy with the auditioning of the XS2/CD5 XS setup I will feel reassured that I am on the right path for a XS Naim system one component at a time.  It would be regretful if I should have purchased a SN2 then later saved for a CDX2.

In closing, I have a personal paradigm in that I was once employed as a Metrologist, repairing and calibrating Test and Measurment equipment.  With this, there is also an Australian (male) mindset that a proportion of the population enjoy V8 Supercar racing.  Which is a national motor sport here in Australia.  It has been reported that a (large) percentage of the population would like to drive a V8, but in all reality end up driving family 4 litre six cylinder cars.  I wish I was in the former group, though fall in the later.  V8's just sound cool.  All that power and low end rumble on tap, never to be used.  It is just nice to know that it is there.  This is meant to be an analogy to a SN2/CDX2.  Nice to know It is there, though I may never hear it.   I do have Minor Industrial deafness.  I have a dip at 15kHz, I have forgotten which ear.

Thank you again.

Paul.

Hi Gigantor,

I use a Nait XS 2 and have three observations from your last post and my own experience.

1  Adding an external power supply (e.g. HiCap or other) substantially improved the weight attack and 'positiveness' of the bass - you can use this to adjust the sound of the bottom end.  This also significantly improved the clarity and resolution of the system, presenting much more detail.  

2  Improving the clarity is definitely the way to go to compensate for an age related reduction in hearing acuity.  See this:
https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...g-loss-pardon-i-said.

3  In general I turn the volume control to about 8:30 or 9 o/c positions for most modern music that ends to be transfered to CD ar a rather higher level than the re book standard specifies.  For classical works at the standard transfer level I tend to use 10 o/c.

So you definitely have a good amplifier and there's no need for concern.  The SL6si speakers are very limited in their bass production - that's the problem, not the amp!

Gday Huge, you are quite correct.  The Celestions are the issue.  When I purchased the XS2 I made it clear that my speakers are very inefficient and was concerned that the amp did not have enough current capacity to drive the Celestions.  This concern reappeared when the salesman who sold me the Celestions informed that in no way could a Naim amplifier drive the Celestions.

After feedback from this Forum and Naim Audio Australia I have had my concerns put to rest.  For the medium term I will now happily use the Celestions knowing that I will not damage the XS2 amplifier which was my original concern, was the amplifier the right amplifier to drive these inefficient speakers of 84 dB SPL.  Later on after I have saved enough dollars I will then look at replacing either the CD player or add a Naim power supply.  This will no doubt lead to another topic for the HI-FI Corner Forum 

At home we normally listen with the volume control some where between 7:30 and 8 o'clock.  When my wife is out, then I might squeeze a few more decibels out at 9 o'clock 

Warm regards,

Paul.

Paul,

Your Telegraph Road experience with the Sonus Fabers looks valuable.

Best, Chris

Hi Paul, the salesman who told you that a Naim amp couldn't drive the Celestions was just after a quick sale of a replacement amp.  Now there's a surprise, a HiFi salesman trying to sell something!  But doing it on ill-informed conjecture isn't acceptable.  Actually Naim amps tend to have very high current drive capability, due to the hefty power supplies they use.

Naim amps aren't at all delicate, in fact they can drive some of the most extreme speaker loads around without getting stressed.  The myth arises from uninformed people who used high capacitance speaker cables on old (CB and Olive series) power amps; the integrated amps are a lot more tolerant of cable capacitance.

What is your existing CD player?  if it's half way decent, then, in this circumstance, it may well be worth thinking about upgrading the speakers first.  (OK, I'll now get shot at by the 'source first at all costs' brigade, but instead of whinging, this pom shoots back!)

Gday Huge,

I think I will have to be very careful with my reply if you shoot back��

My current CD player is a Marantz CD-85 from 1990.  The Celestions were also purchased at the same time.  The salesman who said no way also sold me these items plus an Australian amplifier, an Amber 50b. I have successfully killed it four times.  That was enough for me and went out and purchased my new XS2.

I am open to suggestions whether next year I purchase a CD5 XS (maybe a CDX2, probably not) or purchase the Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 or similar.

I also would not mind looking into the FM tuner too, for later on.  Then there is your recommendation of the power supply too.

Thank you for your post.

Warm regards,

Paul.