ATC SCM19 Speaker vs. Kudos Super 20

I have been there.. and for me it was the ATCs. The Super 20s were good but to me they didn't sounds as integrated and they did suffer a bit of room boom with me that I never fully ironed out whilst I was auditioning them. My dealer later said that Kudos were not properly run in when i borrowed them - so that might account for the lack of integration.

However I like the ATC sound and have had ATC speakers for many years and so perhaps I had a slight bias?

Simon

Thanks Simon-in-Suffolk, I much appreciate your input. Indeed I'm also aware of our potential for bias having owned our early Keilidh speakers since they were almost new, as dealer ex demo stock. I've been quite surprised at how high the bar is to meaningfully better them despite the bad wrap they seem to endure with some. 

I'm also wondering if SCM 19 speakers would demand and XPS on a 272 or be happy enough without as an interim measure - we've heard the benefits on other speakers so understand the difference it makes.

Hi Simon;

Would you mind reminding us what stands you are using your SCM 19 on? Many thanks.

Chag -

Hi Chag, I use Russ Andrews Torlyte speaker stands with Nordost Pulsar Points decoupling speaker from stand, and NACA5 cable terminated as an 'F' config for the ATCs biwiring connectors.

Newnaim16, I can't really comment on the XPS on the 272, but from what I hear from people who own a N272 it appears to nicely improve the sound from the 272. What I can say is that the ATCs are not very coloured.. which usually would think is a good thing? But they can expose weaknesses elsewhere.. sometimes these weaknesses form the 'character' of the amp and source and can be attractive, but either way they tend to be exposed bare. Of course the other big advantage is that recording and mastering techniques are presented more clearly, which if you take the view is a key part of the recorded music experience and you follow certain master engineers  like I do can add hugely to the musical enjoyment.

Simon

When I first got my SL2s last summer, I was using the bare 272/250 and it worked very well. About two months later I added the XPS and there was a very significant improvement, with the 272 effectively moving to a higher plane altogether. It just sounds so much better, more real, more engaging etc. So I wouldn't worry about using either of the speakers with the 272/250 on their own. I did muse on ATCs for a while, but the fact that there are hardly any dealers, and of those most don't stock Naim, put me off. I don't know where you are based, but if you are in reach of Chichester you'd be welcome to listen to my stuff before you choose; who knows, you may be converted to Naim speakers. 

Thanks Simon. The Torlyte indeed is not a well known solution. It makes it quite interesting as I am sure you have spent long hours selecting them and optimizing their placement.

Chag -  

Chag, less so placement, but my garage has a mini collection of failed speaker stands... Mostly high mass stands.. so I would say keep away from them as they are the Devil's work, they just seem to smear mid and high ends robbing that presence, non etched detail and naturalness that makes so many recordings come alive. Try and go light and lossy, especially with heavy drive speakers.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Newnaim16, I can't really comment on the XPS on the 272, but from what I hear from people who own a N272 it appears to nicely improve the sound from the 272. What I can say is that the ATCs are not very coloured.. which usually would think is a good thing? But they can expose weaknesses elsewhere.. sometimes these weaknesses form the 'character' of the amp and source and can be attractive, but either way they tend to be exposed bare.

We've heard the benefits of an XPS on the 272 and there's no doubt that and XPS is in our future. Indeed, your comment about the potential for the ATC SCM19 to expose weaknesses is what I was getting at i.e. how bad would it be without one. The price difference between the two speakers would of course go a long way to funding an XPS purchase sooner rather than later! 

Hungryhalibut posted:

When I first got my SL2s last summer, I was using the bare 272/250 and it worked very well. About two months later I added the XPS and there was a very significant improvement, with the 272 effectively moving to a higher plane altogether. It just sounds so much better, more real, more engaging etc. So I wouldn't worry about using either of the speakers with the 272/250 on their own. I did muse on ATCs for a while, but the fact that there are hardly any dealers, and of those most don't stock Naim, put me off. I don't know where you are based, but if you are in reach of Chichester you'd be welcome to listen to my stuff before you choose; who knows, you may be converted to Naim speakers. 

That's very kind of you to offer Hungryhalibut. We're within driving distance but are already sold on the notion of buying XPS. I considered SL2 speakers but unfortunately they don't meet our size requirements. We live in what was once an older style agricultural worker's cottage that's been dubiously extended by a previous owner so we have some very specific size/space considerations and regrettably, the SL2 does not meet them. Agreed totally about the lack of ATC dealers which is what prompted my discussion on this thread. Normally I'd just borrow an SCM19 pair but it's not a local trip to pick them up.

We're listening to the loaned Super 20 speakers right now and there's nothing we don't like about them so it's a question of my nagging curiosity about the SCM19 in our specific situation ;-)

I'm intrigued as to why you are focussing on the 19, when the 40 is perhaps the S20's natural competitor. And why ATC specifically? There are loads of speakers out there that may be better, but perhaps, if the S20 is doing all you want it might be best just to get them, after all you cannot test everything. Interestingly, the previous owner of my SL2s moved to S20s and thought them a great improvement. I suppose a lot depends on what the room is like and how close you need to get speakers to the walls. The main thing about choosing speakers is finding some that work in your room, and it may well be that you have found them already. 

Newnaim16,

I would be interested to have your impressions on the ATC SCM19 v2 if you have decided to listen to it in your system with the NAP250 DR.

By the way, does anyone feel the SCM entry-level series look better in black than cherry? The cherry looks odd, rather cheap to be frank with the black grilles on them.

I'm a little biased, I own ATC standmounts with naim amplifier.

The dealer has both on demo, when I hear active 40's  I really feel deeply connected (even listening to crappy material) with Kudos30 at the end of a very good naim system things get boring. 

Just to say ,it's just when you hear them yourself you realize. I find much easier talking about differences and sonic signatures with a pletora of brands but ATC.

Newmain16, the thing that struck me with the 19 over the Super 20 is the mid performance which is to die for and the subtle dynamics. The Super20 was more extended but sounded less natural and perhaps more 'hifi' if that means anything. I can imagine people liking clearly either but they do have different presentations. I would say theKudos is more a thrills speaker and the ATC more an insightful monitor which may be too straight laced for some ... 

Of course the 19 contains ATC's pro mid/bass driver which is phenominally heavy and incredibly effective... and I am sure is behind a lot of the 19s natural dynamic performance

Simon

One thing that worries me is reports on ATC passive speakers sounding flat at the end of modestly powered Naim amps. I believe the NAP300 DR may just drive the SCM19 v2 close to its full potential, but anything lesser than that (250 DR and below) may not reveal to true performance of the speakers. The ATC actives are recommended over the passive ATCs, and the ATC integrated amplifier and other high-powered amps are said to be better alternatives than the equivalent / costlier Naim systems on passive ATCs.

Ryder i had a little NaitXS driving a pair of 11s for a while - it was far from flat - a little soft perhaps for an ATC- but not flat. Naim amps don't need sugaring up with certain types of speakers although some do like to have sugar in their tea and coffee.

BTW the 200 drives the 19 wonderfully - the current  ATC passives, especially the 2-ways, are a relatively benign load with lovely nuance and subtlety and good low volume performers - I'm sure the new ATC HF driver helps here - and it is quite an improvement over the earlier bought in versions used in ATC speakers past.. and even those were very good - but the earlier speakers needed to be driven a bit harder in my experience.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ryder i had a little NaitXS driving a pair of 11s for a whole - it was far from flat - a little soft perhaps- but not flat. Naim amps don't need sugaring up with certain types of speakers although some do like to have sugar in their tea and coffee.

BTW the 200 drives the 19 wonderfully = the current  ATC passives, especially the 2-ways, are a relatively benign load with lovely nuance and subtlety - I'm sure the new ATC HF driver helps here - and it is quite an improvement over the earlier bought in versions used in ATC speakers past.. and even those were very good - but the earlier speakers needed to be driven a bit harder in my experience.

Simon

Thanks Simon. Good to know the 200 drives the SCM19s wonderfully. There is hope then. If that's the case, the SCM19s will sound even better with the 250 DR.

I presume the remarks of passive ATCs sounding flat on Naim amps are from ATC dealers who do not carry Naim.

ryder. posted:

I presume the remarks of passive ATCs sounding flat on Naim amps are from ATC dealers who do not carry Naim.

That i don't know - it may be those dealers have developed a sweet tooth - or whatever, it really means little taken out of context. All I know when it comes to audio I am a savoury man 

BTW the 19s (as well as the 11s) will certainly allow you to hear the benefits and differences of a 250 over a 200

ATC passives greatly improve at the end of better power amplifiers, but that's not to say they sounding flat especially with Naim.  This was the case with some new yamaha rated @100 ,wooly sound.

I'd say anything from 200 onwards is superb

On the other hand now that 19 are made active,  I'd strongly consider them as they've  tailored each driver, but don't know much about NAP300, I think it's overkill.

ATC speakers at Axpona were making seriously good sounds, especially the SCM 40's. One of the highlights for me actually.

I would also add Dynaudio and Proac, if at all possible to audition.

Yes if I was starting again I would seriously listen to the actives - there is certainly a real benefit of active over passive speakers in terms of audio reproduction (the passive crossover is really something you don't ideally want in the signal path) - however I do like the Naim NAP 250 sound - it is very Naim like and really appeals - I would lose that with actives unless I went with an active cross over design and multiple 250s but thats a lot boxes and wires - so you have to decide which way you want to go - and you've guessed it - only your ears can decide.

Simon

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm intrigued as to why you are focussing on the 19, when the 40 is perhaps the S20's natural competitor. And why ATC specifically? There are loads of speakers out there that may be better, but perhaps, if the S20 is doing all you want it might be best just to get them, after all you cannot test everything. Interestingly, the previous owner of my SL2s moved to S20s and thought them a great improvement. I suppose a lot depends on what the room is like and how close you need to get speakers to the walls. The main thing about choosing speakers is finding some that work in your room, and it may well be that you have found them already. 

We initially auditioned the SCM40 but prefer the SCM19 when driven with the 272+250DR combination. To our ears the SCM40 sounds a tad thin at lower volume levels (at least when driven by the 272+250DR) plus, it exceeds our preferred dimensions. The two final shortlisted speakers are rather different but the SCM19 has something about the excellent midrange that I find appealing. Lots of other speaker candidates were eliminated for apparently minor considerations such as available finish and size.

The backs of the Super 20 are ~ 200mm from the wall which works well both acoustically and with the room layout. Some otherwise perfectly fine but deeper speakers were further eliminated on the grounds of their size.

Indeed we could go on forever evaluating but I'm hoping to come to a decision very shortly and the Super 20 works well for us.

I agree, you don't want hulking great speakers overwhelming the room, and you are clearly people who want something discreet. 200mm is pretty close and if you can make them work without bass boom or overhang that is good news. They are nice and small too, and being a simple design won't offend. The ATCs on stands would not look so attractive, and the string grilles are rather odd looking. Good luck with the final choice. 

@Simon-in-Suffolk: Your earlier comment about keeping away from high mass stands may be of profound impact to me. I mentioned that I'd be able to get a Capital Purchase Requisition for stand speakers through the Purchasing Director, who has to approve such things but due to her very strong personal preferences, approval for an open low mass stand might be a serious challenge. The Entasis stand from Music Tools has already received tentative pre-approval by the Purchasing Director but I don't see it being qualified as a low mass stand. This could be significant. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The ATCs on stands would not look so attractive, and the string grilles are rather odd looking. Good luck with the final choice. 

Hungryhalibut, You took the very words out of my wife's mouth! That's more-or-less what she said only her words were a little more direct ;-)  

To Ryder's earlier point, we'd go with black rather than the cherry finish because it would work better with our decor/furniture and also subdue the semi see-through black grill but that's just our personal preference. 

Thanks for all the comments, I'll let you all know the decision.

Given the choice of a full-range speaker which had a good mid and was good across the board, or a smaller speaker that had a truly excellent mid, I'd take the latter. But it's only one guy's opinion. Hope it works out for you whatever you choose.

Chris