ATC SCM19 Speaker vs. Kudos Super 20

I meant to add that If I were you I'd drive over to the ATC dealer and borrow a pair, if only to put your minds at rest over the Kudos. It's not a waste of your time if it reinforces what a good decision the Kudos are for you both.

C.

NewNaim16 posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm intrigued as to why you are focussing on the 19, when the 40 is perhaps the S20's natural competitor. And why ATC specifically? There are loads of speakers out there that may be better, but perhaps, if the S20 is doing all you want it might be best just to get them, after all you cannot test everything. Interestingly, the previous owner of my SL2s moved to S20s and thought them a great improvement. I suppose a lot depends on what the room is like and how close you need to get speakers to the walls. The main thing about choosing speakers is finding some that work in your room, and it may well be that you have found them already. 

We initially auditioned the SCM40 but prefer the SCM19 when driven with the 272+250DR combination. To our ears the SCM40 sounds a tad thin at lower volume levels (at least when driven by the 272+250DR) plus, it exceeds our preferred dimensions. The two final shortlisted speakers are rather different but the SCM19 has something about the excellent midrange that I find appealing. Lots of other speaker candidates were eliminated for apparently minor considerations such as available finish and size.

The backs of the Super 20 are ~ 200mm from the wall which works well both acoustically and with the room layout. Some otherwise perfectly fine but deeper speakers were further eliminated on the grounds of their size.

Indeed we could go on forever evaluating but I'm hoping to come to a decision very shortly and the Super 20 works well for us.

Good to hear the SCM19 sounds good with the 272+250DR. I have listened to the SCM40 v1, the predecessor  to the current SCM40 v2. I am not sure how different are the two versions, but the SCM40 v1 sounded thin and analytical to me as well. I listened to these during a hifi show many years ago and walked out from the room in less than 5 minutes. It's lean and all detail. The speakers were driven by Ayre amps at that time. Perhaps they would have sounded better with the Naims.

Similarly like most here, I thought the new iron grille design of the ATCs is the deal breaker. The grilles certainly look odd and made the speakers look cheap. No offense to owners with cherry ATCs as that's my opinion. The ATCs look classier in black than in cherry, and the black grilles will not be too prominent if they are on black than cherry. The build quality and finish of the ATCs are something I must accept if I were to consider them although sound quality is predominantly the main factor. In comparison the Harbeth M30.1 in tiger ebony finish (as well as Hungryhalibut's pristine-looking Naim SL2s) look much more elegant and nicer.

Do keep us updated which speaker you would end up with in time.

Christopher_M posted:

Given the choice of a full-range speaker which had a good mid and was good across the board, or a smaller speaker that had a truly excellent mid, I'd take the latter. But it's only one guy's opinion. Hope it works out for you whatever you choose.

Chris

I would think it's a preference rather than opinion. And yes, I share the same preference. Having said that, the speakers would still need to go considerably low, up to say 50 Hz thereabouts, speakers with main drivers that are larger than 5".

Some speakers that qualify include the ATC SCM11, SCM 19, Harbeth M30.1 and C7ES3.

Quite right ryder, a preference. My true preference is in my profile though no use to the OP. Full-range with excellent mid.

C.

ryder. posted:

As a side-note, I am surprised the Kudos Super 20 does not show any bass issues when placed 200mm from the front wall.

To be more precise, the speaker rear is 225mm from the front wall, as measured at the speaker centre line. I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of any bass issue too, which was not the case with another home auditioned speaker. The bottom ported Super 20 is billed as being room friendly and it seems to be true.

I must admit I thought the metal grills are only there for protection when moving the speakers around.. I really don't think they are designed to be used in situ.. not least they look appalling and also after a while they slip, which reinforces my view they are not designed to be on the cab in use.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... after a while they slip, which reinforces my ...

 

How are they held in place Simon - with magnets?

ryder. posted:

I am surprised the Kudos Super 20 does not show any bass issues when placed 200mm from the front wall.

So am I - mine wouldn't work as well that close in my room 

I just did a little test with double the wall clearance and various audio tracks, including some with lots of bass and there was no appreciable change in bass characteristics. I've not done any super critical positioning but I'm happy that a satisfactory wall clearance can be obtained in our room. There's maybe a whole lot going on due to quite a lot of hard surfaces which could be a factor ;-)

I think you should seriously consider going active, either with the ATC SCM19As or the SCM20ASL Pro Mk 2s. ATC drive units are special wonderful things, they deserve an amplifier each.

Now hold on, Newnaim has just bought a brand new 250DR, and by the sound of it is pretty happy with the S20s. 

i actually love the matt cherry finish and grills of the atc's, really tasteful and oozes quality to my eyes. the grills look great and offer real protection from my bairn's little fingers. atc do state in their literature that the speakers have been optimised with grills in place.

the footprints of the scm40 and scm19 are the same.

thin is not a word i would use to describe the scm40 at low volumes. they sound fantastic whatever the volume to my ears.

i guess it would be a dull world if we all hear and see things the same

Yep, I'd add 40s to the list as well .. and even more so active 40s. Have spent many wonderful musical years with those incredible midrange units a few feet away from my ears in a variety of configurations  .. great, great deliverers of music.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Now hold on, Newnaim has just bought a brand new 250DR, and by the sound of it is pretty happy with the S20s. 

Exactly, as Hungryhalibut mentioned, the 272 + 250DR are both brand new so they're a given. There are a great many speaker options but life is too short to evaluate them all. Only two candidates are still under consideration, i.e. the Super 20 and SCM19. It really is a question of if there's a compelling reason to home audition the SCM19. They're both great speakers but I'm beginning to favour going with the Super 20, which is also my wife's preference. This discussion is helpful.

2 weeks ago I heard the 250DR with the S20s having previously been a little unimpressed with them - probably because they had been with Linn amps - this time I was very impressed - could have lived with them.

That's good to know The Strat (Fender). I've had to be quite ruthless in narrowing down the options and am running a spreadsheet to capture my/our thinking. Some perfectly fine speakers have been eliminated simply on the grounds of their size and some others rejected because we didn't like the finish options available. Our previous system until very recently was Linn LK1 pre-amp with LK280 amp + Spark PSU so you can see that we tend to keep our gear quite a long time  

NewNaim16 posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... after a while they slip, which reinforces my ...

 

How are they held in place Simon - with magnets?

Yes, magnets

I ran active Keilidh's for many years in an all-Linn setup and was really pleased with them.  Since I moved over to Naim electronics I have owned Spendor A5s (too boring), Ovator 400s (excellent but too big), Kudos Super 20s and currently Focal Sopra 1s.  I spent a day demoing the Super 20s at a dealer and was impressed with the high-end openness and extension.  However, after a while at home this just came across as over-brightness that I found really jarring.  I spent most of my time listening to mellow 1950s/60s jazz albums as a lot of my music just sounded too bright and edgy.   Replacing them with the Sopras has been a blessed relief.  So a big dose of caveat emptor on the Super 20s from me, especially if your room is bright.

Indeed, and if your room is not bright such as mine I found the Super 20 sound non integrated.. IE the bass and treble was there in spades, but where was the mid?

Me thinks I'm going to have to borrow a pair of SCM19 to try at home, otherwise I'll never know.

@Noogle: I'll be careful and appreciate your input. 

@Simon-in-Suffolk: My wife has a concern that the SCM19 could be too bright - especially in our room and cause listening fatigue but I don't share her concerns. Do you have any additional comments on that?

NewNaim16 posted:

Me thinks I'm going to have to borrow a pair of SCM19 to try at home, otherwise I'll never know.

 

+ 1

FWIW my S20's were a little bass boomy when I was using my 250 (recently serviced but non-DR) but that went when I upgraded to 2x135 amps a month or two back.  Sound now is very impressive (in a completely musical rather than hifi way) and the bass is very tight. Mine are about 6' apart and slightly toe-in; about 9" away from the bookshelves behind and about 2" from the side walls.  IMO they are great speakers and compared very well to the others I demoed at that price level.

Never heard the SCM's so can't comment on the comparison I'm afraid.

Bluedog, I was wondering where you were all this time! Fear I'm spending too much time here and need to get my life back    ;-)

Chris

I have the ATC SCM11s. I love them. Some points to note:

They're very easy to position. Being sealed, they're not as affected by wall a behind as some.

That makes them hard to drive, but a NAP200 is great with them. 

The grills are an acquired taste. 

The build quality is superb.

They do seem to like low mass stands. I use Atacama Moseco stands which aren't super-expensive, and they look very smart.

They sound just lovely. They have a wonderful ability to bring out the music. I have said this before, but: if you want to enjoy your speakers, look elsewhere; if you want to enjoy your music, ATCs might be for you.