ATC SCM19 Speaker vs. Kudos Super 20

NewNaim16 posted:

 

@Simon-in-Suffolk: My wife has a concern that the SCM19 could be too bright - especially in our room and cause listening fatigue but I don't share her concerns. Do you have any additional comments on that?

They could be, they are not a bright speaker, but room/speaker interactions produce a lot of strange effects . They are not however as highlighted as Kudos Super20 in my experience... 

One thing I would say is that my ATCs have always taken quite a while to run in.. Certainly initially sounding a big ragged and constrained, but I don't think ATC are unique here.. 

For some reason inline replying isn't working - alas.

I've had two different experiences with demos with ATC & NAIM.

In response to Ryder's post below,  when I was demoing integrated amplifiers I compared the SuperNAIT to the ATC SCIA2-150 with the ATC SCM11 (V1s) with a NAIM CD5Xs as source.   The 11s may not be as power hungry as the 19s, but I ended up buying the NAIM amplification over the ATC Integrated with much more power on tap at similar prices. 

Personally I found the combination magical and that the SuperNAIT drove them well, but this type of presentation may be something I'm used to as I have been running inefficient Studio Monitors (Duntech PCL10 6om 86db) for years.   Different expectations for different people

As a counterpoint, I have heard the ATC SCM40s driven by a SuperUNITI and was underwhelmed.  Can't fully fault the SuperUNITI I suppose, but it just didn't seem to grip and move them.  Strongly recommend you demo with your home gear or at least comparable amplification. 

Nathan

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RYDER.MEMBER

Christopher_M posted:

Bluedog, I was wondering where you were all this time! Fear I'm spending too much time here and need to get my life back    ;-)

Chris

Hi Chris

I pop in from time to time but I am an "all vinyl Olive" Naimer so a lot of the posting is of only passing interest. Still vaguely thinking about comparing a 552 kit at some future date though

I, too, would advise you to audition the ATCs. Equally, if you want small that does big, try and get your ears on a pair of Shahinian Obelisks or Arcs.

Michael_B. posted:

I, too, would advise you to audition the ATCs. Equally, if you want small that does big, try and get your ears on a pair of Shahinian Obelisks or Arcs.

Or Compass! Having had ATC SCM11, SCM40 and Kudos S20 here in the same spot as my Compass, i'd not change the Compass for any of them.

my dealer has also the newer passive SCM19 on demo.

Fantastic speaker, it would be bad not to give a proper listen ,no standmount speaker to my knowledge sounds so big , has a similar dynamic range and natural organic sound.  Even better than many a two drivers floor standing such as spendors Kudos or Proac's.

Actives are a different beast, but I preferred Naim to the good sia2-150 integrated demoed.

The ATC midrange unit used in the larger ATCs like the SCM40 and larger PMCs until they started to make their own clone is sublime, and has to be the best there is, or within a whisker though I haven't heard or heard of others that might beat it. When I've heard vocals were uncanny, bringing the singer into the room. But the SCM40s may be less than ideal in the bass, as their response only goes down to 48hz, and that's the -6dB point. (Though better than the 19s). To have full output down to 40Hz you'd need the SCM50s from their pro range - but they're bigger, and more aesthetically challenging!

almost universally active will be better than passive because each amp is directly driving its speaker, nothing in the way, as well as the amp having toamplify a narrower bandwidth. But at the cost of the active crossover and more amps.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ryder. posted:

I presume the remarks of passive ATCs sounding flat on Naim amps are from ATC dealers who do not carry Naim.

That i don't know - it may be those dealers have developed a sweet tooth - or whatever, it really means little taken out of context. All I know when it comes to audio I am a savoury man 

BTW the 19s (as well as the 11s) will certainly allow you to hear the benefits and differences of a 250 over a 200

Simon, just to be sure, are the SCM11s the latest version that you have owned? If they are, how do you compare both SCM11 and SCM19? Is the SCM11 vastly inferior to the SCM19 since the latter comes with the SL spec driver?

I have checked the prices of the SCM19 and the retail is £1,996. It may be a bit of an overkill to match the SCM19 with the 282/250/Hicap which will cost in the excess of £9,000. Since you have reported wonderful results with the NAP200 driving the SCM19, I may consider retaining the 202/200 (instead of selling the whole lot) to drive the SCM19, if I happen to end up with the ATC.

Both ATC SCM19 and Harbeth C7ES3 are currently the top 2 speakers I have identified for a 2nd system.

I did the ATC comparison in the store - 7, 11 and 19.

The 11s punch way above their weight for me. They're superb speakers for small/medium rooms, and match brilliantly with the NAP200. They are neutral, sweet and musical, with plenty of oomph when the music demands.

For a lot more money, the 19s are better. They go a bit lower and sound a bit 'fuller'. They retain all the wonderful attributes of the 11s, while adding a bit more all round.

I left with the 11s for a home trial, and bought them. They did exactly what I wanted, and still do. While the 19s were slightly superior, I was delighted with the 11s with my intended set-up.

Solid Air, thanks for the experience. I presume the SCM11 is easier to drive than the SCM19 since it doesn't come with the SL driver? Dang, after reading your post I might just consider the SCM11 as it will be used in a rather small space, along a 3.2m wall. Not to mention I have the NAC202/NAP200 which may be a better fit for the SCM11 than the SCM19. 

I'm not sure about ease of drive - seems like that's a dark art. They have the same sensitivity, which indicates they're in the same area, but there are other factors, such as 'impedance curves' (nope, me neither) which apparently have an effect.

I only heard the 19s in a dealer's room, but they and the 11s sounded great with a SuperUniti, if that's any guide. My 11s sound even more awesome with my NAP200.

nac202/200 is my pairing and work a treat with 11, i m pretty sure same and better with 19. I prefereed to atc integrated

FWIW re Ease of driving, the Classic range, which includes the currest SCM7, 11, 19 & 40 is  claimed by ATC to have a "Flat impedance curve allowing easy load for amplifiers"

Innocent Bystander posted:

 the SCM40s may be less than ideal in the bass, as their response only goes down to 48hz, and that's the -6dB point. 

that may be true on paper but in the flesh they are full range, they make a mockery of the specs. in my listening comparisons i had the bottom end somewhere between pmc twenty 24 and pmc twenty 26 - and pmc specs go a lot lower.

Thanks for the responses.

Antonio1, Solid Air, for your SCM11s, may I ask what is the distance between the speakers, centre to centre? What is the minimum clear distance from the side walls for the speakers to sound good?

Thanks.

Simon, may I ask what is the distance between your SCM19s, centre to centre? What is the clear distance of the speakers from the side wall, measured from the sides of the speaker cabinet to the wall?

hi Ryder I've experimented a little and found in my little room they 're not so fussy about positioning , to get best soundstage and integration I've set to 1,80 metres between them (centre to centre) and 50 cm. from the side walls taken from the centre , they're toed in so side speakers' shortest distance from the side wall being 32cm.  Also they're well off the rear wall(70 cm.) but I'm compelled to and cannot get them closer.

Antonio1 posted:

hi Ryder I've experimented a little and found in my little room they 're not so fussy about positioning , to get best soundstage and integration I've set to 1,80 metres between them (centre to centre) and 50 cm. from the side walls taken from the centre , they're toed in so side speakers' shortest distance from the side wall being 32cm.  Also they're well off the rear wall(70 cm.) but I'm compelled to and cannot get them closer.

Thank you for the information. Much appreciated. So your SCM11 is in a rather small space. The width of your room at 2.8m is slightly smaller than my room at about 3.2m width. Not sure if the SCM 19 or SCM 11 will fit better in a room of 3.2m width, and the differences between the two speakers. What do you think?

In a small room or space, I suspect the scale and bass of the SCM 11 would be quite satisfying or adequate.

I think it would depend on the room, if acoustically apt , I've seen a many more larger speakers act well.

But keep in mind SCM19 are really huge and when matched to good equipment they'll go really deep and produce much impact (not the one you'd expect from the ones which have the mid bass exposed , but really deep and controlled bass in the background resulting in a  huge image) . So they do 40's and even 11's but in a scaled down way .

Overall I think the 11's would  be more than adequate in my room or slightly bigger , sound better and  still produce a satisfying picture almost as above.

Hey Ryder,

What are the chances that you will bring your 202/200 to the showroom to test out the scm11 and scm19?

I'm interested to know how they sound fronted by naim amps. In another forum(xtreme), I read that the 250 heated up while driving the scm19 to above 90db. So I am getting mixed messages on whether a 200 (250DR or SN2) can drive anything higher than scm11.

regards

Antonio1 posted:

I think it would depend on the room, if acoustically apt , I've seen a many more larger speakers act well.

But keep in mind SCM19 are really huge and when matched to good equipment they'll go really deep and produce much impact (not the one you'd expect from the ones which have the mid bass exposed , but really deep and controlled bass in the background resulting in a  huge image) . So they do 40's and even 11's but in a scaled down way .

Overall I think the 11's would  be more than adequate in my room or slightly bigger , sound better and  still produce a satisfying picture almost as above.

Wow, the SCM19 'really huge'? Never heard that said about a 2 cubic foot speaker before. (Even on a stand how big is it compared to the equipment rack?) It's only an inch and a quarter wider, which is what you see, and 2.5in deeper than the SCM11. Height is a bit more but you'd be picking stands to get speakers at right height so unlikely to make much difference. And the SCM40s are effectively the same size as SCM19 on stands, just filling the wasted stand space with somethibg useful, effectively the same size in the room. Perception of size, of course, is all in th eye of the beholder,

if you're looking for good and relatively very small looking speakers consider the PMC Fact 12 that does something amaziny for its size, though not personally to my taste. Quite a few have raved about the Fact 8 which is a lot more affordable.

I do think that even 11's are quite huge ,but with the room on mind and in regards to smaller standmounters I had in the past and worked fine in the room,I should've added. 

We did the car drive and a pair of SCM19 speakers are now in our home and connected to our 272+250DR with TQB cable. They're a brand new pair out of the box, so not run in yet. I don't want to comment at this stage but they're certainly an impressive little speaker. I'll report on how we feel about them later.

kmchow98 posted:

Hey Ryder,

What are the chances that you will bring your 202/200 to the showroom to test out the scm11 and scm19?

I'm interested to know how they sound fronted by naim amps. In another forum(xtreme), I read that the 250 heated up while driving the scm19 to above 90db. So I am getting mixed messages on whether a 200 (250DR or SN2) can drive anything higher than scm11.

regards

Hi kmchow98,

I don't think I'll be auditioning the SCM11 and SCM19 at the dealer's showroom with my 202/200 amps even though I am ready to commit to a purchase. I will usually take a leap of faith by listening to the speakers with the amps chosen by the dealer. If the ATCs sound good with other amps, I am convinced they will sound equally good if not better when driven by Naim amps, especially since several SCM11 and SCM19 owners here have reported excellent results with the ATC/Naim combination.

Yes, I know the Xtremeplace forum. I just went there and had a quick peek at the ATC thread. I suspect the owner who reported a thermal shutdown of the NAP250 may be on the older SCM19 model instead of the current SCM19 v2. Above 90dB is still manageable. I will find out soon whether it's the v1 or v2. From what I gather the original SCM19 model does present a difficult load for amplifiers but the current model is an easy load for most amplifiers.

Fair enough.

At that price level, I would prefer to listen to it carefully, and preferably at home. It's hard to resell speakers in Singapore. Too many low ballers.

Since your room is small, it think the Scm11 will be more suitable.

For me, I think only the 19 would be considered a worthy replacement for my Spendors. I have the SN2, if it doesn't have enough grunt, my next step is to sell my HicapDR and get a 200dr and go biamp. Should be interesting.