Significance of the digital source in the output SQ

This has been pretty well done to death. I can tell the difference between a UnitiServe and a NAS and between FLAC and WAV, and between upnp servers, as well as between Ethernet cables. Of course, if we follow the 'bits are bits' argument, then they would all sound the same, but they don't. 

If you have a dac its very easy to test it for yourself and, as HH says, it's also very easy to hear differences in digital transport and all of the gibbons that surrounds the transport.  We touched on this in a thread earlier this week so I'm sure that if Simon passes through he will provide soem science behind it all.

IF you search the forum, you'll even find the technical reasons why digital sources vary.

Indeed - agree wtih all above.

It's a very naive propostion that music is just 0s and 1s, even when digitised. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

This has been pretty well done to death. I can tell the difference between a UnitiServe and a NAS and between FLAC and WAV, and between upnp servers, as well as between Ethernet cables. Of course, if we follow the 'bits are bits' argument, then they would all sound the same, but they don't. 

Kindly direct me to the relevant link, if you could please, thanks.

I need to understand this issue better, so i can decide if i need to change my digital storage and player, which now is a Mac mini with J River software.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Indeed - agree wtih all above.

It's a very naive propostion that music is just 0s and 1s, even when digitised. 

Not "music" but all information in the digital world consists of 0s and 1s, it is an undisputed fact.  

But how these actually occur in actual practice (in the silicon chip), is the part i do not know, which is why i decided to investigate this more.  I am sure there is substance to what people say, so i will research it.

dayjay posted:

If you have a dac its very easy to test it for yourself and, as HH says, it's also very easy to hear differences in digital transport and all of the gibbons that surrounds the transport.  We touched on this in a thread earlier this week so I'm sure that if Simon passes through he will provide soem science behind it all.

Please refer me to the link of the subject discussed earlier this week, if you could.  

What do you mean by transport, the interconnecting cable of the whole equipment train?

It's the gibbons that make for a more swinging sound. 

Paristhea posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

This has been pretty well done to death. I can tell the difference between a UnitiServe and a NAS and between FLAC and WAV, and between upnp servers, as well as between Ethernet cables. Of course, if we follow the 'bits are bits' argument, then they would all sound the same, but they don't. 

Kindly direct me to the relevant link, if you could please, thanks.

I need to understand this issue better, so i can decide if i need to change my digital storage and player, which now is a Mac mini with J River software.

I suggest you search the forum, as there is no single source of information on this. I've never used a Mac mini, and all I know from reading is that they work very well connected to a DAC. But if you use an NDS it would be more usual to use a NAS as streaming source over Ethernet, rather than connecting a Mac directly. Of course, you may be able to stream over Ethernet from the Mac, which would be something else again. So I can't really help on what you should do, but I do know that all digital sources are not the same. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's the gibbons that make for a more swinging sound. 

What is "gibbons"?  The interconnects?

Gibbons are apes in the family Hylobatidae /ˌhaɪloʊbəˈtaɪdeɪ, -diː/. The family historically contained one genus, but now is split into four genera and 17 species

Hungryhalibut posted:

Paristhea posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

This has been pretty well done to death. I can tell the difference between a UnitiServe and a NAS and between FLAC and WAV, and between upnp servers, as well as between Ethernet cables. Of course, if we follow the 'bits are bits' argument, then they would all sound the same, but they don't. 

Kindly direct me to the relevant link, if you could please, thanks.

I need to understand this issue better, so i can decide if i need to change my digital storage and player, which now is a Mac mini with J River software.

I suggest you search the forum, as there is no single source of information on this. I've never used a Mac mini, and all I know from reading is that they work very well connected to a DAC. But if you use an NDS it would be more usual to use a NAS as streaming source over Ethernet, rather than connecting a Mac directly. Of course, you may be able to stream over Ethernet from the Mac, which would be something else again. So I can't really help on what you should do, but I do know that all digital sources are not the same. 

Yes that is what i am doing currently.  I use a time capsule (router) which provides the home network, but the Mac mini and the N272 are connected via ethernet cable to the time capsule (router), hence to each other.  I can also send music to the N272 from my laptop, via the wireless home network.  I send to the router, and the router sends to the N272 through the ethernet cable.

Seems to work excellently, i do not think i am missing anything.  And i have a reasonable amount of 24 bit HD music too.

Anyway, i will keep searching and reading.

Regards,

Adam Zielinski posted:

Gibbons are apes in the family Hylobatidae /ˌhaɪloʊbəˈtaɪdeɪ, -diː/. The family historically contained one genus, but now is split into four genera and 17 species

Yes, that much i also read in the online dictionary, was no more enlightening though than the word itself.

Dayjay's autocorrect changed gubbins to gibbons. 'Gubbins' is a term for 'bits and pieces' so you might say 'all the gubbins in a car's engine, or 'all the gubbins inside an NDS'. 

No, I actually meant small apes.  They are a bugger to keep quiet and they do tend to wreck your furnishings but the system sounds fantastic when they are in the room! 

Paristhea posted:

posted:

 

To Joerand:

You have a problem mate, do not answer my questions.  "smug" was your comment right now, all my questions are serious.

Please do not get involved with my posts in the future, i do not care about your opinion.

Thanks.

I think you've posted in a wrong thread.... Joerand is not on this one

Paristhea posted:

dayjay posted:

If you have a dac its very easy to test it for yourself and, as HH says, it's also very easy to hear differences in digital transport and all of the gibbons that surrounds the transport.  We touched on this in a thread earlier this week so I'm sure that if Simon passes through he will provide soem science behind it all.

Please refer me to the link of the subject discussed earlier this week, if you could.  

What do you mean by transport, the interconnecting cable of the whole equipment train?

Paristhea, if the data was first transfered to the dac (no matter how and assuming the dac had enough memory to store a whole playlist) and then (after the data transferring process has terminated) converted to analog signals, then only the data format would possibly have an impact on the sound quality, because of the different processes and computational efforts involved in converting different formats.

As a matter of facts, however, data is currently transferred to the dac while replay takes place. This implies that synchronization, error-correction (remember that, in spite of the fact that digital data is transferred, the transferring process itself -- be via optical or electrical signals, USB, S/PDIF or TCP/IP -- is essentially analog) and buffering processes are running while digital data is converted to analog signals. I understand that these processes (possibly through different machanisms, e.g., by affecting the CPU load) can have an impact on the data conversion process and, therefore, on the sound quality.

In fact, most of the approaches discussed in this forum (galvanic isolation, dedicated power supplies, ...) and the measures implemented in devices like the Melcos can be seen as attempta at better decoupling the two processes: data transfer and data conversion. The easiest way to achieve a perfect decoupling would be, of course, to avoid simultaneous data transfer and data conversion.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Dayjay's autocorrect changed gubbins to gibbons. 'Gubbins' is a term for 'bits and pieces' so you might say 'all the gubbins in a car's engine, or 'all the gubbins inside an NDS'. 

Irrespective of weather gibbons or gubbins it's actually very true - the quality of internal components, how they are wired together make for significant and audible differences in digital transports (e.g. ND5XS vs NDX used as a transport) as well as digital / analogue (e.g. NDX vs NDS as a stand-alone player)

Paristhea,

Apologies and I deleted my prior post:

"DeVore Fidelity has a family of Gibbon speakers. Probably equally as useful but at least in the audio realm. You may make more progress talking directly with the dealer that made the suggestion and eschew the further smug comments here."

My comment was in deference to the comments here by others, not by you. I posed it incorrectly and deleted it once I reread it. I meant to say talk to your dealer more in depth about the matter as the "gibbons" related comments were getting rather smug. Not yours.

I am so sorry, i misunderstood your comment.  I will delete the thread, if i can.  Apologies again.

No worries. Seems you've got lots of homework ahead

Hi Paristhea, I suggest searching the forum for "bits are bits": you'll get many threads that explain why this is a vast oversimplification.

Some of the salient points include:
RFI
Power Supply Noise
Jitter / Re-clocking / Buffering
Digital Processing / Oversampling / Noise Shaping / Digital Filters
DAC quality
Effect of ultrasonic spuriae on analogue amplifiers.
Quality of analogue filters
Quality of analogue output stages

Plenty for you to research.

The gubbins I was referring to would include different USB cables, devices like the USB Regen and Audioquest Jitterbug, both of which I use, converters to allow USB to connect to an Ndac etc etc.  Almost all that II have tried has an impact on the final sound, some more than others. When I got my Hugo for a while I connected just about every device in my house with a digital out including various PCs and Macs, phones, Virgin Box, TV etc and they all sounded very different.  After a lot of experiementing to decide on my transport I ended up with a Naim streamer,  a Mac Book Pro and a Mac Mini (both on Audirvana) and choose the Mac Book Pro with some gubbins attached as my best option - sadly the gibbons where not available at the time.

dayjay posted:

...
- sadly the gibbons where not available at the time.

I thought the gibbons arrived in the swinging sixties! 

I'm going to put forward a different reply.

Many people are saying that UPnP servers and the server hardware and ethernet cabling matters.  I say it doesn't.  My experience is that (unless you have errors) that MinimServer running on a Linux install on a Dell Optiplex sounds identical into my NAC-N 272 as LMS (as a UPnP server) running on the same hardware or Asset running on my MacBook.

Of course I accept I may be deaf!

What can sound different is any computer directly attached - that is via USB or even via a USB to SPDIF converter; as noise and other undesirable interference can cause the DAC to react differently; there are even devices out there which claim to offer improved isolation between the computer and the DAC; though there is only anecdotal evidence (listening testing) to support this claim.

At the end of the day ... why take anyone's opinion.  You are best of trying things for yourself.  There is a phrase that comes to mind ... "Keep your mind open ... but don't let your brains fall out!"