Optical TOSLINK vs. USB SPDIF

Naim recommended the following connection:

pg.10

https://www.naimaudio.com/site..._dac_august_2009.pdf

Thanks a succinct answer at last and a resulting financial saving.

Rob

You don't say what software you're running on the MM. If Audirvana (widely regarded as best renderer) then the MM's optical output isn't ideal, best SQ being USB as it bypasses the MM's soundcard. But I don't know if the nDAC's USB input has galvanic and rf isolation - if not you'll need a USB/SPDIF converter as well. I use a Gustard U12, which also isolates any electrical/rf noise: works well (and Richard Dane is currently assessing it, so far with positive impression).

Hi Rob,

my NDAC gets its input from a Mac Book Pro via toslink and I very much like the result. Having said that, the XTOS from the Dutch company EC Design looks intriguing. You can bypass the soundcard in the Mac and still get perfect galvanic isolation.

Innocent Bystander posted:

You don't say what software you're running on the MM. If Audirvana (widely regarded as best renderer) then the MM's optical output isn't ideal, best SQ being USB as it bypasses the MM's soundcard. But I don't know if the nDAC's USB input has galvanic and rf isolation - if not you'll need a USB/SPDIF converter as well. I use a Gustard U12, which also isolates any electrical/rf noise: works well (and Richard Dane is currently assessing it, so far with positive impression).

@IB The nDAC has no USB (audio class) inputs. Thus, a USB to SPDIF converter is needed for connecting the MM via USB to the nDAC.

@ROBH My nDAC is connected to a M2Tech hiFace Evo USB to SPDIF converter. The converter is connected to a low power, fanless fit-PC3 running MinimServer, upmpdcli and MPD under Debian / GNU Linux. Both the M2Tech and the fit-PC3 are powered by TP PSUs.

In the beginning, I have tried both the optical (Toslink) and the electrical (BNC) SPDIF outputs of the M2Tech (connected to the respective nDAC inputs) and I preferred the electrical connection. I have not done new tests recently. When watching videos on an iMac, I connect the iMac to the nDAC via optical.

I would suggest that you borrow a good USB to SPDIF converter (please, see https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...nverter-for-naim-dac) and compare it to the optical output of the MM. If you do so, please report your findings.

I use Toslink into my SuperNait from my MM. Works fine. I did replace my original MM with  a later model that purportedly has lower jitter as the SN DAC isn't nearly as clever as the stand-alone Naim DAC when it comes to re-clocking. Can't say I noticed much difference, though.

nbpf posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

You don't say what software you're running on the MM. If Audirvana (widely regarded as best renderer) then the MM's optical output isn't ideal, best SQ being USB as it bypasses the MM's soundcard. But I don't know if the nDAC's USB input has galvanic and rf isolation - if not you'll need a USB/SPDIF converter as well. I use a Gustard U12, which also isolates any electrical/rf noise: works well (and Richard Dane is currently assessing it, so far with positive impression).

@IB The nDAC has no USB (audio class) inputs. Thus, a USB to SPDIF converter is needed for connecting the MM via USB to the nDAC.

@ROBH My nDAC is connected to a M2Tech hiFace Evo USB to SPDIF converter. The converter is connected to a low power, fanless fit-PC3 running MinimServer, upmpdcli and MPD under Debian / GNU Linux. Both the M2Tech and the fit-PC3 are powered by TP PSUs.

In the beginning, I have tried both the optical (Toslink) and the electrical (BNC) SPDIF outputs of the M2Tech (connected to the respective nDAC inputs) and I preferred the electrical connection. I have not done new tests recently. When watching videos on an iMac, I connect the iMac to the nDAC via optical.

I would suggest that you borrow a good USB to SPDIF converter (please, see https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...nverter-for-naim-dac) and compare it to the optical output of the MM. If you do so, please report your findings.

 

Funny thats what I believed to be the case until following the link KAYDEE6 posted- ijust assumed the link was about the NDAC.  Given this infor the Gustard would work berween Mac Mini and nDAC, using either optical ot electrical SPDIF, and Richard Dere is experimenting  with the aes/ebu output see thread re Gustard U12 burn in 

as for borrowing another one to try and compare, I am very happy with what I have, - better than ND5XS into Hugo - and I have no idea where I' d find someone willing, in a remote location without hifi shops. That I leave to you - however perhaps Richard's assessmen/comparison will be useful to others. THe Gustard has received favourrable comparisons with other options on other forums, though I don't have a note of which.

RobH posted:

Im sure this is a well trodden route!  My system is Mac Mini into my NDac via an optical toslink and its pretty good.  However, I'm forever wondering if I get a little more out of it. Ive read countless articles but I'm none the less still confused. Would I get any sound improvement if I changed the toslink for a well implemented USB?

 

Rob

It won't make any difference because as we all know "bits are bits".  However, in a temporary fit of insanity I bought an Anedio USB-SPDIF converter to hook my PC up to my NDX and I'm convinced it sounds better than Toslink.  Shows how throwing money at something affects how you perceive SQ.

Innocent Bystander posted:

as for borrowing another one to try and compare, I am very happy with what I have, - better than ND5XS into Hugo - and I have no idea where I' d find someone willing, in a remote location without hifi shops. That I leave to you - however perhaps Richard's assessmen/comparison will be useful to others. THe Gustard has received favourrable comparisons with other options on other forums, though I don't have a note of which.

Sorry IB, I was suggesting that ROBH borrows and tries one USB to SPDIF converter against the MM optical output, not you. You already have an excellent converter as far as I understand.

Unfortunately, SPDIF interfaces do not get systematically tested and reviewed and the Naim DAC is quite sensitive to the quality of its input stream. I wish Naim would come up with a DAC that can convert from internal memory and -- if the user wishes so -- after data transfer has completed. Such a DAC would be perfectly source agnostic and the connection to the DAC would have zero impact on its sound quality.

You would Rob, definitely. I've been using USB to S/PDIF converters ever since they released the first M2Tech HiFace which is considered the first or at least one of the first USB to S/PDIF converters. This was like 6-7 years ago and before that, I used optical or coaxial connection from PC to DAC with professional sound cards like ESI Juli@ or M-Audio products. 

M2Tech already brought clear improvement over the coaxial connection I used back then. I've upgraded my USB bridge several times after that and always there's been an improvement to the SQ. Nowadays I use TeddyPardo U2S with great results. Though this technology develops so fast that the XMOS chip used in my U2S has already been updated twice or more. Though I want to believe that the chip used is not everything here, just like it isn't in DAC. Gustard U12 uses one step newer chip and would probably be my choice currently. It's also very affordable so it's easy to try it out without losing much money even if you end up selling it.

winkyincanada posted:

I use Toslink into my SuperNait from my MM. Works fine. I did replace my original MM with  a later model that purportedly has lower jitter as the SN DAC isn't nearly as clever as the stand-alone Naim DAC when it comes to re-clocking. Can't say I noticed much difference, though.

I don't know about the SN, but Hugo is impervious to jitter in the feed signal. What it isn't impervious to is the electrical/rf noise that can come from a computer source, with an electrical connection, and I don't know whether that also applies to theSN: Yes, you can use the optical output from the MM which will isolate the electrical/rf noise, but not jitter if the SN can't cope with it. However, if using Audirvana you have the option of  using a dedicated USB output and totally bypassing the Mac Mini's (computer) soundcard, for better quality. That would neeD either an isolator if the SN has a USB input but is susceptible to noise, or is it doesn't have USB then a convertor to SPDIF or whatever - which is where something like the Gustard fits in.

Come up with what?

Further advice please,  Ive read reviews on the Yellowtec puc2 lite USB converter , however it has an AES 3 XLR output, how could I feed that into the nDAC (ignorance is bliss and Im quite happy). 

You'll need one of these: http://goo.gl/nLwuIB

But IMHO this seems like a bit of a faff.

RobH posted:

Further advice please,  Ive read reviews on the Yellowtec puc2 lite USB converter , however it has an AES 3 XLR output, how could I feed that into the nDAC (ignorance is bliss and Im quite happy). 

Unless there's some urgency, I'd be inclined to wait for Riachar Dere's assessment of just that, and indead comparison with the excellent Gustard U12. Only one person's view of course, but with a good background.

Thanks Mr Bystander (like to keep it formal), when where etc is the assessment being published?

Rob

RobH posted:

Thanks Mr Bystander (like to keep it formal), when where etc is the assessment being published?

Rob

Hi Mr H, 

that I don't know,It's so ething you'd have to ask Richard - I suspect from what he has said it might not be quick. Meanwhile some info has been posted on at least a couple of threads recently, one being Gustard U12 burn in?

IB

You'll have to be patient as it won't be for a few weeks yet. Just too busy right now, sorry. However, I have connected the Gustsrd via AES/EBU using a Canare transformer and BNC coupler which works well and should allow a straight swap over to the PUC2. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

winkyincanada posted:

I use Toslink into my SuperNait from my MM. Works fine. I did replace my original MM with  a later model that purportedly has lower jitter as the SN DAC isn't nearly as clever as the stand-alone Naim DAC when it comes to re-clocking. Can't say I noticed much difference, though.

I don't know about the SN, but Hugo is impervious to jitter in the feed signal. What it isn't impervious to is the electrical/rf noise that can come from a computer source, with an electrical connection, and I don't know whether that also applies to theSN: Yes, you can use the optical output from the MM which will isolate the electrical/rf noise, but not jitter if the SN can't cope with it. However, if using Audirvana you have the option of  using a dedicated USB output and totally bypassing the Mac Mini's (computer) soundcard, for better quality. That would neeD either an isolator if the SN has a USB input but is susceptible to noise, or is it doesn't have USB then a convertor to SPDIF or whatever - which is where something like the Gustard fits in.

The mini allows a USB audio output without Audirvana. I tried a USB-SPDIF converter but gave up after it failed twice. 80:20 rule for me. As long as the jitter isn't truly dire, it will be good enough for my cloth ears. That's why I just switched to a new MM with better jitter numbers. I've tried online tests for detecting jitter, compression and bit-rate differences and it seems that I'm just not that sensitive to that stuff.

There was someone who posted on here who swore by a high quality glass toslink (Wireworld Supernova 6) over any USB converter he had tried for his MM into his DAC.

Was a couple of years ago, pre-GU12 days - so things may have moved on.

At present, as I have simply been getting to understand the configuration I am using a cheap plastic toslink and it is very good.

Next stage is a Wireworld SN7. See how that works.

SpecCled Trout posted:

There was someone who posted on here who swore by a high quality glass toslink (Wireworld Supernova 6) over any USB converter he had tried for his MM into his DAC.

Was a couple of years ago, pre-GU12 days - so things may have moved on.

At present, as I have simply been getting to understand the configuration I am using a cheap plastic toslink and it is very good.

Next stage is a Wireworld SN7. See how that works.

Whilst that may be better than having MM's noise reach the DAC, it doesn't allow max quality as it is still using the MM's soundcard, unlike routing through a dedicated USB out. (Assuming Audirvana.)

SpecCled Trout posted:

There was someone who posted on here who swore by a high quality glass toslink (Wireworld Supernova 6) over any USB converter he had tried for his MM into his DAC.

Was a couple of years ago, pre-GU12 days - so things may have moved on.

At present, as I have simply been getting to understand the configuration I am using a cheap plastic toslink and it is very good.

Next stage is a Wireworld SN7. See how that works.

I do not think that it is worth using a high quality optical cable if the source of the signal is the sound card of the MM. On the other hand, if you connect the MM to the Naim DAC via a USB to SPDIF interface with optical output (at the one suggested by MULBERRY, for instance) you might be able to take advantage from a high quality optical connection between the interface and the DAC. 

winkyincanada posted:

... I've tried online tests for detecting jitter, compression and bit-rate differences and it seems that I'm just not that sensitive to that stuff.

Could you please provide a pointer to the online tests that you have tried?

Some observations:  Transport jitter with SPDIF and USB is seperate from sample jitter. These days with reclocking the two are largely decoupled but there is in the real world cross tal between them. 

Sample jitter typically removes low level detail by hiding it by raising the  noise floor .. Therefore jittery sampled replay will sound less resolving and detailed especially in the higher frequencies than a more constant sample clock replay.

Fibre cables have an interesting uniqueness with respect to transport jitter.. The transport clock can be modulated by physical vibrations on the fibre cable in my experience. This modulation is extremely low level, and this jitter when reclocked may well be below the noise floor for some equipment, but it's there. I witnessed an experiment (using special equipment) where conversation in a room could be recovered from a lit fibre passing through that room. This phenomenon is used in  many interesting  applications. 

I think the big advantage of fibre is the complete electrical isolation, and in many setups I suspect that advantage out weighs its disadvantages. In my experience the biggest compromise with TOSLINK fibre connections occurs at the interfaces and connectors, and that some equipment use relatively low bandwidth optical transceivers.

It occurs to me that my question has not been answered.  Would at top class optical link sound better that sound better or not as good as a top class SPDIF and USB

Rob