Brexit

Peter

If you look down the page a bit you will see a thread titled "Are we sleep walking out of Europe". You will find many answers to your question and much more.

Enjoy!

Clay Bingham posted:

Peter

If you look down the page a bit you will see a thread titled "Are we sleep walking out of Europe". You will find many answers to your question and much more.

Enjoy!

 

Thanks Clay, interesting thread.

It is also interesting to  me  to note that the majority of Britons are actually indifferent to whether UK is in the EU or not.

I'm not sure they are indifferent, I think they actually struggle to understand what either 'still in' or 'out' will actually mean in hard practical terms. They are not alone; neither do the leaders of either camp.

Bruce

The 2 parts of the EU that I struggle with (as someone who is a dual US/EU citizen and is actively trying to move there) is (A) the fact that the EU bureaucracy is unelected and not accountable to the people, which appears to me to be a tremendous end-around on democratic institutions (not to mention that these technocrats are very well compensated - telling other people they need to practice austerity while they dine on Chateaubriand and caviar) and (B) the damage they have done to certain industries in the name of central control - the Portuguese fishing industry comes to mind.

There just doesn't seem to be a tremendous amount of accountability for these bureaucrats. I mean, to me, being one seems like it would be a "dream" job; well paid, lots of perks, and not much in the way of tangible output...they don't seem to create value. If they were subject to VAT, they would have a zero tax bill.

OTOH, visa free travel, work, and pooled economic resources seems a good idea...but not if it is as badly mismanaged (and plundered) as it seems to be. And as unelected "leaders" move closer to being able to tax with no repercussions or accountability, that would make me uncomfortable.

And I know the EU parliament is elected - but what do they do? My understanding is that they do not (and cannot) pass law - not much of a parliament really.

Peter Dinh posted:

Why the anti-EU sentiment in the UK has been on the rise? Is it because Britons are uncomfortable about the rise in immigration?

As far as I can see, immigration has been mostly positive for the UK economy by fueling growth, lifting tax revenue and attracting skilled workers in financial services, and health care, among many other areas. In addition, it will enrich the local culture.

I am myself not neutral - actually I am fully convinced that Brexit would be bad for Britain, Europe and the world.

Peter,

Here is my take as someone who is equally convinced that a BREXIT would be bad for the UK in particular, but also for Europe and the World in general.

When the referendum was announced, I was convinced that the UK would vote overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. There was only one remotely relevant political party in the UK (UKIP) in favour of an exit, and this minority party, was only created in order to campaign for a UK exit from EU.

However, it appears that there are some parallels with the recent US elections. I was equally convinced that the US would be sensible enough to run a mile from the prospect of Donald Trump getting anywhere close to the presidential nomination. In the UK, we have an equally arrogant and charismatic (I hesitate to use that term of Trump, but it appears that many people in the States view him as such) buffoon and political opportunist in Boris Johnson leading the Brexit campaign.

In my opinion, Boris Johnson views his recent allegiance to the BREXIT campaign as a means of usurping David Cameron as leader of the Conservative party, and as a stepping stone to becoming the next British Prime Minister. The BREXIT campaign is littered with half-truths and downright lies, but it appears that many people are falling for them. There are of course some ordinary people who do have genuine concerns and legitimate arguments against the EU and its record, but the BREXIT campaign itself as lead by Johnson, Farage and Gove in my opinion borders on the corrupt. It is certainly a vehicle for self advancement and political gain on the part of Johnson and Gove.

Each of the main political parties in the UK (Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Nationalists) is overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU, as I believe are the majority (if not the overwhelming majority) of the UK population. Unfortunately, a mixture of apathy and general distrust of politicians may mean that the UK is indeed in danger of "Sleepwalking out of the EU".

The end result of a BREXIT win will be:

1. The current Conservative government and its leaders will be compromised to the extent that it will be forced to call a general election. Cameron and Osborne will be forced to resign. Around 50 or so MPs in his party have indicated that they would vote against his next budget.

2. The Conservative party will probably be taken over by Johnson and Gove and their lackeys, and will potentially become the most right wing government we have ever had, leading to an even stronger North/South divide, and even more divisive feelings of inequality and a general lack of fairness amongst the population of the UK. 

3. The SNP will call for a further referendum in Scotland, if as I expect, Scotland overwhelmingly votes to remain in the EU. This time it will probably win.

I could go on, but I am just becoming more and more depressed by this.

I only hope that the polls are incorrect (as they often are) and that the voters next Thursday will get out of their seats and see sense.

As I posted recently in the other thread... The more I see ordinary people interviewed about Remain or Leave the more I realise that most people voting Leave are not voting because they have weighed the arguments and feel the UK would be better off out of the EU; some even recognise the risks; but they are voting leave as the feel it's a route to change. 

They are voting leave because they are fed up of high housing costs; low wages; being unable to get a decent job; having to wait for NHS treatment and a host of reasons which have nothing to do with the EU (or at least could be tackled while remaining part of the EU). It wasn't the EU that introduced bedroom tax and universal credit.  So don't vote out because of the sins of the Conservative government  (and those that came before).

David Cameron only offered an EU referendum as a sop to his own party and to counter UKIP and I doubt he expected anything but a Remain result. He did it not because he wanted the populous to have a say; he did it to keep power and many of his decisions since are a way to make sure he (well the Conservative party) are able to remain in power.

Hopefully the UK electorate will see sense (at least from my point of view) and realise the risks of exit outweigh any possible perceived benefits ... But I fear the argument is lost on many and they hear only what they want to hear: that with Brexit we can control our borders and spend all our money the way we want to - the electorate have fallen for that one before!

The big money (i.e., the 1%'ers) and power brokers want the UK to stay - it will stay. I think the polls are just being touted to make it "exciting".

The 1% pretty much always gets what it wants...and they want consolidated control.

As for the US election - I have no issue with anyone who wants to point out what a buffoon Trump is. What I have trouble with is the fact that anyone can actually think Clinton is better.  (And the exact obverse of that scenario is also true...talk about a perfect balance.)

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

I'm not sure they are indifferent, I think they actually struggle to understand what either 'still in' or 'out' will actually mean in hard practical terms. They are not alone; neither do the leaders of either camp.

Bruce

Me too.  I decided to vote STAY, because all the information I hear is contradictory, and if in doubt, stick with what you've got.

DrMark posted:

The big money (i.e., the 1%'ers) and power brokers want the UK to stay - it will stay. I think the polls are just being touted to make it "exciting".

The 1% pretty much always gets what it wants...and they want consolidated control.

As for the US election - I have no issue with anyone who wants to point out what a buffoon Trump is. What I have trouble with is the fact that anyone can actually think Clinton is better.  (And the exact obverse of that scenario is also true...talk about a perfect balance.)

+1

Both look like a complete disaster.  Are their running mates any better?  If so, we could hope that whichever one of these 2 gets in, that they will be impeached and the VP take over.  (sigh)

DRMARK posted:

As for the US election - I have no issue with anyone who wants to point out what a buffoon Trump is. What I have trouble with is the fact that anyone can actually think Clinton is better.  (And the exact obverse of that scenario is also true...talk about a perfect balance.)

I probably shouldn't comment on the US political scene, but I feel compelled to in the case of Trump. Although I described Boris Johnson as a buffoon and political opportunist, at least he isn't an overtly dangerous buffoon. I have to admit that whilst his political views are very different from mine, at least he has a fairly affable, and probably a genuinely affable side to his personality. I fail to see any such redeeming feature in Trump. He just comes across to me as a deeply disturbing and unlikable human being.

I also find it difficult to understand why anyone would hold the view that neither of the Clintons is any better. I am sure you will elaborate.   

Simple - she is a neocon war monger. Donald the clown won't get to do much of anything he says (has he even said anything? Well besides building a wall that he'll never get to build. ) I really don't think he planned to get this far.

The harridan, on the other hand, will get to do everything she and her neocon backers want. She is one of them. She also brings the world MUCH closer to WW III and nuclear war...especially when she appoints Nuland SoS.

A truly abysmal state of affairs. I can only think of voting in this election as an immoral act.

What can we make out of the brutal murder of Jo Cox, who had spoken out for migrants, and who had campaigned for UK remaining in EU?

Peter Dinh posted:

What can we make out of the brutal murder of Jo Cox, who had spoken out for migrants, and who had campaigned for UK remaining in EU?

...nothing until you know substantially more about the nature of her attacker (and their mental health).

If her murder is somehow spun for political advantage by either campaign it will be plumbing a seriously new depth

Bruce

I guess this tragedy reminds everyone that those who represent us are, by definition, accessible and therefore at risk. They don't get to filter who can contact or consult them. Serious assaults on NHS staff (especially in mental health services and emergency services) are unfortunately common for the same reasons.

A lot of this is about empowerment. In a referendum you have a vote that genuinely counts (I may as well stay in bed in constituency elections, such is the Tory majority). If you then vote to leave - i.e. to change the status quo - you're doubly empowered.

Whatever the arguments pro & con, this simple fact is driving the sentiment in the GBP.

Some of the campaigning is disgusting ... seen Farage's latest campaign poster?  Anti immigration rhetoric using the image of displaced refugees.  The picture even echo's Nazi propaganda material from the 30s.

One of his cohorts had this to say... (quoted from the Guardian)

A Ukip spokesman said the comparison with Nazi propaganda was invidious and “those making them should remember Godwin’s law”, an internet adage that heated discussions tend eventually towards someone bringing up the Nazis, and that those who do have lost the argument.

No Mr UKIPer ... its not Goodwin's law when you compare behaviour and imagery used to the Nazis ... sighting Goodwin's Law in this instance is just trying to distract.

Of course any complaints about this poster (while some have been made) are pointless.  Its already got its message across to some people; and those people won't care what the source of the image is.  The people who care likely aren't going to be listening to Farage anyway.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

...nothing until you know substantially more about the nature of her attacker (and their mental health).

If her murder is somehow spun for political advantage by either campaign it will be plumbing a seriously new depth

A number of television news reports have quoted eyewitnesses to the attack as stating that the attacker shouted out "Britain first" a number of times as he carried out the attack. However, he appears to be a deranged and dangerous individual and loner, who should now be locked up for the rest of his life.

I agree with your view that the murder should not be spun by either side for political advantage, However, I say this with one caveat. Although this individual obviously had nothing directly to do with the BREXIT campaign, some of the dangerous and disturbing rhetoric spouted by some of the more extreme members of the campaign about the migrant situation (I include Farage in this) is food and drink to the tiny minority of misguided and dangerous lunatics on the far right of the campaign. 

Was the murder of that poor lLabour mp yesterday a direct result of the horrible racist undertones beneath a lot the brexit rhetoric we are hearing. I had a leaflet through my door yesterday that had a map of Europe divided along the borders of Turkey etc clearly insinuating that if we stayed in the EU we would be over run with Muslim fanatics.  I as a second generation Irish immigrant find all this immigrant hating highly offensive and am ashamed by it. 

Bob the Builder posted:

Was the murder of that poor Labour mp yesterday a direct result of the horrible racist undertones beneath a lot the brexit rhetoric we are hearing. 

Reported in the press:   The brother of the suspect  has said that he (the suspect) had a history of mental illness.   Also that he was not a violent man and is not that political & didn't know who he votes for.    

It doesn't take long for even the greatest tragedy to be used to push a political agenda does it?  Expected but sad non the less.

dayjay posted:

It doesn't take long for even the greatest tragedy to be used to push a political agenda does it?  Expected but sad non the less.

The death of Jo Cox in Leeds is no less being spun than the attack on the LGBT Club in Orlando was.  Both were subject to rumours and assumptions to aid (however subtly) a political point of view.  It will take weeks, if not months to discover the true motivations behind both attacks, if the true motivation is ever know.  By which time everyone will have made their own mind up and will have no interest in the truth.

Truth ... the first victim of the internet!

Hmack posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

...nothing until you know substantially more about the nature of her attacker (and their mental health).

If her murder is somehow spun for political advantage by either campaign it will be plumbing a seriously new depth

A number of television news reports have quoted eyewitnesses to the attack as stating that the attacker shouted out "Britain first" a number of times as he carried out the attack. However, he appears to be a deranged and dangerous individual and loner, who should now be locked up for the rest of his life.

I agree with your view that the murder should not be spun by either side for political advantage, However, I say this with one caveat. Although this individual obviously had nothing directly to do with the BREXIT campaign, some of the dangerous and disturbing rhetoric spouted by some of the more extreme members of the campaign about the migrant situation (I include Farage in this) is food and drink to the tiny minority of misguided and dangerous lunatics on the far right of the campaign. 

Mentally ill patients (psychotic) have for centuries attributed thoughts, actions and reactions to whatever is the topical evil of the age. Might be the influence of the gods, or witches and demons, or the French, or Catholics, or Tony Blair or the radio mast on the hill, or the 'foreigners'.

If he is indeed psychotic then he could just as easily have shouted 'kill all window cleaners', it would be equally as irrelevant to the debate about motive.

Bruce

PS I'd like to make it clear I have nothing against window cleaners.

Bruce,

I agree with pretty much all of what you say in your post. It does appear from what has emerged so far that this individual is probably mentally ill (psychotic), and yes, such a person could have his or her psychotic behaviour triggered by virtually anything. It was simply a horribly sad set of circumstances that resulted in this tragic event taking place.  

My comment about dangerous rhetoric and its potential impact was not made in relation to mentally ill individuals who display psychotic tendencies. Rather it was directed at those elements on the every far right (such as the BNP), whose membership includes individuals who may not be clinically classified as psychotic, but who are none the less particularly nasty and dangerous, and who will potentially be influenced by such rhetoric.    

Hmack

Point taken. From what I have glanced at in the newsagents on occasions in the last month, some of those 'nasty and dangerous individuals' are editors of mainstream newspapers.

Oh God! Now I'm torn.

I used to know the way best suited for me. I knew what I knew and knew my uncertainties. Nonetheless I knew to follow the 'Sleepwalking' thread. Only now, now we have the 'Brexit' thread as well.

I know I must choose which is best to follow and nail my colours firmly to that mast. Clearly following neither and abstsaining is no solution really. But I'm confused. I need more information.

Please help me choose.

JamieWednesday posted:

Oh God! Now I'm torn.

I used to know the way best suited for me. I knew what I knew and knew my uncertainties. Nonetheless I knew to follow the 'Sleepwalking' thread. Only now, now we have the 'Brexit' thread as well.

I know I must choose which is best to follow and nail my colours firmly to that mast. Clearly following neither and abstsaining is no solution really. But I'm confused. I need more information.

Please help me choose.

Perhaps we need a referendum on which thread to follow