HiLine; a heretic awaits his pyre

System balance is key, no point in spending that money to have to " upgrade " something else to get the " benefit" of the Hiline. 

Count me in on the 'put the standard cable back in and all the music came back' brigade. Hiline, impressive yes, better music, no.

Can't speak for the Hiline but I tried a few non-Naim power cables and came to the conclusion that none of them sounded better than the original.

Fine for those who can afford all the bling accessories but personally the more Naim complicate($$$) things the more I question if Naim is (still) for me.

As an engineer, I can't bring myself to even a little bit believe in all these fancy interconnects and I'm not going to buying any of them.  But I don't mind Naim complicating things and offering them to their loyal customers if it helps to keep the company in profit, so they can also make real products that I do believe in like the 272 and 250DR, for example.

best

David

David Hendon posted:

As an engineer, I can't bring myself to even a little bit believe in all these fancy interconnects and I'm not going to buying any of them.  

best

David

Do you need to understand the technical explanation for something before you believe it, David? I don't properly understand why gravity works but I believe in its effect. 

My ears tell me there's a difference between interconnects and that's the sense I use to determine whether I want one over another.    

Mike

David & MDS,

I'm an engineer too (hence the daft avatar). I used to work in the aerospace/electronics industry. I know that cables can have different properties (a £15,000 signal cable for a submarine, sir?), but this night and day transformation à la HiFi+ magazine was always a bit much for me. I DID hear a (very subtle) difference between grey & HiLine which altered the sound coming out of my speakers, but it was the opposite from what I expected. For a few years I worked as a systems engineer, and I know what careful component matching can do to a system (whatever it may be). I think that I've managed to put something together that works extremely well - in fact, I've had comments from people with much better (more expensive) systems than mine about how good it is.

Normally I wouldn't entertain such an extravagance as a fancy interconnect, but I'd inherited some money and felt a bit experimental/enthusiastic. I'm glad I've got that out of the way and I can go back to enjoying the music.

Will.

David Hendon posted:

As an engineer, I can't bring myself to even a little bit believe in all these fancy interconnects and I'm not going to buying any of them.

What exactly don't you believe? That different cables can sound different? That much is simple to assess by listening, weather or not you understand the technical reasons. Weather or not very expensive cables are worth the money is more subjective, but again, if you understand the engineering and design challenge, you can at least make some sort of assessment of their value. Many of us, of course, have virtually no understanding of why any cables sound different from each other. Once you get to Super Lumina level, I cannot begin to imagine what sort of materials, labour costs etc. might justify the asking price.

I firmly believe different cables produce different sound, I just don't see why they need to cost a fortune to sound good. Just like I don't believe in paying 15k for a Rolex when a Swatch is just as accurate. At that point it's mostly a question of look and prestige. Same reason NACA5 was such a hard sell compared the more expensive and aesthetically pleasing and competition.

You tried it.  You didn't care for it.  I'm not sure anyone can fault you for that.  I however, will not be parting with mine.  

Will - I tried HiLine twice. It always went back... Like you, I didn't like what it did to my music.

On the other hand, when I put a SuperLumina in..... 

Hastings, and that's fine by me too. I'd never presume to judge anybody for their choices, & I'm pleased you're happy with yours.

Adam, Fortunately my dealer has no 2nd hand SuperLuminae available ;-)

Will Dias posted:

Got a used HiLine on home dem the other day. Gosh, they're fragile & rattly - I would have felt more at ease handling a rattle snake (especially as it was on loan)!

While listening through the old grey, I performed all the massaging and stroking and cooing, and then got round to swapping them. My system's in an alcove - like a fitted cupboard with no doors, and fitting it was a heart-in-mouth-while-swearing-under-my-breath exercise. Cable dressing was done as well as possible in the circumstances.

The result - well there was a difference, but an extremely subtle one, not the 'night and day' some have reported. More interestingly, I didn't really like it. It was definitely smoother, more polite, more 'liquid'(?) - excuse me, I'm particularly not good at this describing sounds stuff. The big problem was, that some of the life seemed to have been sucked out of the music, like the musicians couldn't really be bothered.

When I finally swapped back to the plain stock cable, there was slightly more edge and glare to the sound, but the music was back! I'll live with that, just as I'll live with pops and crackles on records.

I really wanted to like the HiLine, it's a lovely bit of design, and it comes with smart silver tin! Maybe I'm just an old codger who's stuck in the 90s Olive period which is when I got into Naim.

So, Hiline back to the dealers (the missus had to post it, and muttered something under her breath when I mentioned how much insurance cover it would require), and I've got some spondoolicks to blow on more music.

Regards,

Will.

Or Maybe, you're just a realist, personally I believe once one have reached a certain level of performance most changes in SQ are subtle! 

The illusions create the night and day Changes! 

That being said, hi fi is a hobby that I enjoy, and it can be expensive!  And at the end of the day that's what we do, Spend thousands of dollars on upgrades that produce subtle changes, that can't be detected by the Norm! 

But remember we aren't  the Norm!!!!

Out! 

Allante93! 

I'm really not sure what all this 'I'm an engineer' rubbish has got to do with anything. I have a PhD in zoology and am now an accountant. I have Super Lumina leads and think they are great, and that they are worth every penny, giving an improvement on the scale of a box upgrade. They cost what they cost because that is what they can be sold for. All the 'I'm an engineer' comments, to justify superior knowledge or judgement, serve only to demonstrate a closed, rather than open, mind. 

I really wish that I could close my mind to the difference that cables can make 

Interesting one Will. I bought a Hiline 'blind' on the advice of my dealer when I returned from living overseas 6 years ago. It went straight into my reassembled system in the UK, so I never did an A/B with the grey cable and just assumed it was doing the job. Last year it broke (!) and went back to Naim for repair (FOC ��) and the grey went back into the breach. I honestly couldn't swear I heard much difference and upon the return of HiLine I again didn't really hear a difference - perhaps a bit smoother, but no qualitative improvement to the music. It could be that there's somehow some variability in particular examples of Hiline cables as others swear by them and I don't believe they can all be deaf or deluded, but mine didn't really work for me.

Having previously dabbled with Nordost and Kimber speaker cables versus NACA5 and heard no improvement/worse sound, my Hiline experience kind of 'confirmed' in my mind that I was a cable sceptic and firmly in the non-believer camp ( I'm also an engineer by Uni major!)

However, like Adam, SuperLumina not only turned that on its head but 2 months into using one I'm pretty adamant that it's a simply uncanny and stonkingly obvious musical improvement in my system, very different in its effect on the music to any of the box upgrades I've made. Chord SuperSarum Aray was also transformational. A very different kind of sound, but that very fact reconfirmed for me that cables sound different to one another. Anyway, my point is that differences between cables are definitely for real AFAIC. That Hiline didn't work for you I can readily believe, but I reckon dont give up on the idea that you may one day find a better IC for your system if you feel the need to seek one.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm really not sure what all this 'I'm an engineer' rubbish has got to do with anything. 

In fairness, I think technical knowledge counts for something.  How much is an open question.  Ours is a hobby awash in snake-oil.  I don't have more than a basic understanding of electricity and know even less about musical theory so why not hear from the engineers?    

Iconoclast posted:

I firmly believe different cables produce different sound, I just don't see why they need to cost a fortune to sound good. 

I think this is an excellent point.

Cheers!

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm really not sure what all this 'I'm an engineer' rubbish has got to do with anything. I have a PhD in zoology and am now an accountant. I have Super Lumina leads and think they are great, and that they are worth every penny, giving an improvement on the scale of a box upgrade. They cost what they cost because that is what they can be sold for. All the 'I'm an engineer' comments, to justify superior knowledge or judgement, serve only to demonstrate a closed, rather than open, mind. 

Halibut, I think its wonderful that you think that the interconnects are great and worth every penny, however, I don't see any need to come across as so mardy about it ;-)

I was very open minded. I tried them, they did little for me, I returned them.

btw, being an engineer may perhaps have given a person experience/knowledge about such things as cable engineering, just as your education and professional experience may afford you a better understanding than the average punter of the tax arrangements of nudibranchs, or whatever your specialisation was/is.  

Ian Brown posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm really not sure what all this 'I'm an engineer' rubbish has got to do with anything. 

In fairness, I think technical knowledge counts for something.  How much is an open question.  Ours is a hobby awash in snake-oil.  I don't have more than a basic understanding of electricity and know even less about musical theory so why not hear from the engineers?    

Iconoclast posted:

I firmly believe different cables produce different sound, I just don't see why they need to cost a fortune to sound good. 

I think this is an excellent point.

Cheers!

I also think knowledge counts for something and, in this case, clearly an engineer may have an improved understanding of how cables are made, what the process is and what the cost may be. However, I would perhaps argue that the knowledge required to determine if a cable provides an improvement in sound would be that of a musician, or perhaps of a sound engineer or hifi retailer or reviewer.  For my part it's another of those irritating pointless arguments, a bit like the bits are bits or all amps sound the same arguments, all you have to do is connect up a number of different cables and have a listen.  I haven't heard the Lumina, the price is too scary for me to do so, but I can categorically state that a Chord Anthem reference sounds different to a standard cable, as does a TQ Black interconnect, and to my ears they both sound better.  Of course if  others can't hear that difference then that's fine, it will save them a few quid to spend on more music.

Will,

your present system components don't really need the expense of a fancy cable.

Spend your upgrade budget on the best pre-amp you can afford, 72, 82, or 52+PS

this will engineer in more music and listener satisfaction  

Debs

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm really not sure what all this 'I'm an engineer' rubbish has got to do with anything. I have a PhD in zoology and am now an accountant. I have Super Lumina leads and think they are great, and that they are worth every penny, giving an improvement on the scale of a box upgrade. They cost what they cost because that is what they can be sold for. All the 'I'm an engineer' comments, to justify superior knowledge or judgement, serve only to demonstrate a closed, rather than open, mind. 

Stand back gentlemen - I'm a philosophy graduate (possibly why I had to work in Hi-Fi).

In the greater scheme of things - this isn't much. I pass this on for free.

Other insights are available - for money.

AND - I suspect you weren't able to get the HiLine hanging low, nor tied it in a knot, nor tied it in a bow. Neither did you swing it over your shoulder in the manner of a continental soldier, and so on.

A non-dangly HiLine is a marginal thing.

Of course, I could be wrong - not everyone likes the same thing.

Damn, another one for free. Should have done Business Studies (another one!).

I guess the engineer thing is about conventional scientific 'wisdom' as it is taught in the classroom i.e. that any conductor that meets requirements, that measures correctly in terms of resistance, capacitance, impedance etc., will carry a signal as well as and no better than the next such cable that measures similarly. To believe otherwise suggests that other physical characteristics are influential. Scientists of a strict mindset generally dismiss such groundless theorising as hocus-pocus until it can be proven in a lab.

The fact that the hocus-pocus cables tend to cost a fortune doesn't help dispel scepticism of course...

One further thing. I was not an electronics engineer, and would never claim to have more than a limited understanding of such things, but I have worked closely with others who do (and some to, gasp, PhD level), and if people read my posts, they will see that I concede that cables have different electrical properties. I even gave an off the cuff example of an extraordinarily expensive one that was developed by a team in my company. Furthermore, the price of this was not what people were willing to pay, it was developed to extremely tight costings.

I'm constantly amused at how chumpy some posters seem to get over, what is after all, meant to be a pleasurable hobby. Ho hum.

dayjay posted:

However, I would perhaps argue that the knowledge required to determine if a cable provides an improvement in sound would be that of a musician, or perhaps of a sound engineer or hifi retailer or reviewer.

Odd bod that I am - I tend to leave to the people who might be spending the money on it.

I know they're all untrained idiots - but they're you.

Hi, I thought about using the hi-line, but the lovely Forum readers confirmed that in my set up it was unlikely it would work.  Like Will above, my set up is in an alcove with little or no space for the cable to dangle freely, which is what the cable requires.  Even if I had the money, I am spared the longing for Super Lumina, as it appears they also need to dangle more freely than my set up allows.

I have found, however, that changes in speaker and other interconnect cables to be significant, IMHO a bit more than just fine tuning - I finally settled on Nordost (Blue heaven and now Red Dawn) as providing the sound I prefer in my listening room - I just didn't like the sound NACA5.  Like others I tried other power cables, but came back to the standard Naim cable as providing the sound I preferred.  Interestingly, for my Muso, I prefer the sound of one of the cheaper Nordost mains cable - purple flare.

Best wishes Amer  

Chris Dolan posted:

I really wish that I could close my mind to the difference that cables can make 

As I was reading through this thread I was wondering "Where's 'Red Chris' when you need him?"

Here he is! 

evil_C