HiLine; a heretic awaits his pyre

Allante93 posted:

 CHRIS WEST TRADE MEMBER

12/14/12 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Mike-B:

Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

People spend thousands on wires with the aim of making them have no impact on the sound. As if to make them sonically vanish. Julian used his noodle and made it happen from day one of Naim amp design by integrating a well defined and inexpensive wire into the amps circuit! Neatly removing speaker wires as an sonically indeterminate after thought ...  

 Using different spec wires or using shorter lengths on a Naim amp, is like opening a non-naim amp and experimenting with changing or removing circuit components. Not recommended!

 Chris

AV Options

Nowadays it's The Full Loom!

SL technologies, anywhere between 5K and 10K, depending  if one's System is Active or not!

Don't even mention, Chord Music!

Less than two years ago, is was common for Naim's 500 Series to be coupled with Standard Interconnects and Nac A5!

Funny how things change!

As HH says, if you got the Cash, it's all good!

Allante93!

Hungryhalibut posted:

Will Dias posted:

Mattnbarns posted:

Is there anybody on this forum (other than HH) who is not an Engineer?  Me too (an Engineer that is),

One thing I find interesting in all this (and I have no answers) is why some people hear differences and others don't.  Of course those that do are certain it is because there is a difference and attribute this to the 'thing' they feel has brought about the change.  They often declare that those that don't hear a difference or, god forbid, try to bring scientific measurement into the argument are closed minded.

Matt (sadly the Barns part is no longer with us)

Hi Matt. 

To be fair to HH, I think he was replying to someone who refused to try on engineering grounds. 

Regards, Will

Absolutely. It's the use of 'I'm an engineer' as a way of saying that you have special knowledge and your view is especially significant that I object to. All this stuff is subjective and everyone's view is equally valid, whether they are an engineer or not. 

As to whether the posh cables are worth it is something else entirely. You either pay or you don't. 

 

Exactly. Of course this stuff is subjective. But you're entitled to your own views, not to your own facts. The gold standard in separating the two are statistically valid double blind experiments. The objection of the high-end audio industry to such things is perhaps a clue.......follow the money.

Dear all,

This has been a fascinating thread, and thanks to all contributors, it's gone from hearing differences, to a mass outing of engineers, with various confessions and humorous stories added in (Adam, you're wasted in your present role and should consider stand-up).

A few observations:

1. Engineers are a strange breed. The T shirt claiming "I'm an engineer, for simplicity, let's just assume that I'm never wrong" is so close to the truth. In my previous employment, this was very much the culture in our multi-disciplined engineering division. There's grain of truth to it, but arrogance can result.

2. There was a post earlier about Julian V's views. I joined the original Naim forum when he was still around, and an occasional poster, and his statements were very much along the line of "well, you are free to try any interconnect, speaker or mains cable, but why bother - we've tried 'em all and we think our (inexpensive) stock ones are the best with our equipment. Obviously since his sad death, Naim has changed (for better or worse), and the new direction is somewhat different. I fell in love with the Naim sound before this, and perhaps the new products are just not for me. However, if I won the Premium Bonds, would I try the top end stuff - you bet. But as things stand, I'm incredibly happy with my mid level Olive set up.

3. I realise that all reproduction equipment is just that. It all has compromises. Our choice is how much are we willing to spend to attempt to minimise those. In my other guise, I'm a semi pro photographer (I do my own stuff, bt also a wee bit of commercial). I once visited St, Paul's Cathedral and was overawed at the scale of the inside of the building. I tried to capture this. My best photograph merely hinted at it. I think HiFi is the same, it manages to capture the essence of music, but is nowhere near the real thing.

I wish all those with HL & SL cables the best. You've found something that enhances your pleasure in this daft hobby of ours.

All, the best,

Will.

Will Dias posted:

Dear all,

This has been a fascinating thread, and thanks to all contributors, it's gone from hearing differences, to a mass outing of engineers, with various confessions and humorous stories added in (Adam, you're wasted in your present role and should consider stand-up).

A few observations:

1. Engineers are a strange breed. The T shirt claiming "I'm an engineer, for simplicity, let's just assume that I'm never wrong" is so close to the truth.

All, the best,

Will.

If engineers were by-default certain they were right, the world would be replete with engineering failures. Figuring stuff out and relentlessly checking so they do know is what engineers do. For the most part, they recognize the consequences of being wrong and act accordingly.

The defining trait of science is to say that it doesn't know. Observation and experiment to reduce that uncertainty. In contrast a homeopath (for example) will accept no evidence that they're wrong.

winkyincanada posted:

Will Dias posted:

Dear all,

This has been a fascinating thread, and thanks to all contributors, it's gone from hearing differences, to a mass outing of engineers, with various confessions and humorous stories added in (Adam, you're wasted in your present role and should consider stand-up).

A few observations:

1. Engineers are a strange breed. The T shirt claiming "I'm an engineer, for simplicity, let's just assume that I'm never wrong" is so close to the truth.

All, the best,

Will.

If engineers were by-default certain they were right, the world would be replete with engineering failures. Figuring stuff out and relentlessly checking so they do know is what engineers do. For the most part, they recognize the consequences of being wrong and act accordingly.

The defining trait of science is to say that it doesn't know. Observation and experiment to reduce that uncertainty. In contrast a homeopath (for example) will accept no evidence that they're wrong.

This is, for the most part true, but engineering failures do happen (new type 45 anoyone?). Engineers are human, I know, I was one for nearly 25 years. Engineering is merely the application of a formal framework to developing new stuff, with the assumption that it will reduce the risk of failure t acceptable levels. I've fixed many mistakes over the years. 

W

Will Dias posted:

Dear all,

This has been a fascinating thread, and thanks to all contributors, it's gone from hearing differences, to a mass outing of engineers, with various confessions and humorous stories added in (Adam, you're wasted in your present role and should consider stand-up).

A few observations:

1. Engineers are a strange breed. The T shirt claiming "I'm an engineer, for simplicity, let's just assume that I'm never wrong" is so close to the truth. In my previous employment, this was very much the culture in our multi-disciplined engineering division. There's grain of truth to it, but arrogance can result.

2. There was a post earlier about Julian V's views. I joined the original Naim forum when he was still around, and an occasional poster, and his statements were very much along the line of "well, you are free to try any interconnect, speaker or mains cable, but why bother - we've tried 'em all and we think our (inexpensive) stock ones are the best with our equipment. Obviously since his sad death, Naim has changed (for better or worse), and the new direction is somewhat different. I fell in love with the Naim sound before this, and perhaps the new products are just not for me. However, if I won the Premium Bonds, would I try the top end stuff - you bet. But as things stand, I'm incredibly happy with my mid level Olive set up.

3. I realise that all reproduction equipment is just that. It all has compromises. Our choice is how much are we willing to spend to attempt to minimise those. In my other guise, I'm a semi pro photographer (I do my own stuff, bt also a wee bit of commercial). I once visited St, Paul's Cathedral and was overawed at the scale of the inside of the building. I tried to capture this. My best photograph merely hinted at it. I think HiFi is the same, it manages to capture the essence of music, but is nowhere near the real thing.

I wish all those with HL & SL cables the best. You've found something that enhances your pleasure in this daft hobby of ours.

All, the best,

Will.

Sounds like a fitting conclusion, but what will talk about!!!

+1, I couldn't have said it better myself!

Thank You!  Mr. Will Dias!!!! 

Now all of you out there, Enjoy your Music, the Why! 

Allante93!

Allante93, many thanks - but there's loads of other threads on the forum, I didn't mean to be so arrogant as to close this one, but perhaps my last post could be read so, apologies. 

I love all this stuff & i think it's fascinating reading about the way we all go about it. 

One more observation (will i ever shut up?), I don't know about others, but i find myself in a strange dilemma. Whilst only having mid-range olive naim, I sometimes read about high level kit & wonder - should i go there? Whilst at the same time I'm considered bonkers by many friends & family about how much I've invested in a music system  (& I'm often embarrassed to admit just how much I've spent). 

W

Will Dias posted:

 (Adam, you're wasted in your present role and should consider stand-up).

 

He is standing up, he's only 4 foot 3.

HiLine ≠ HiLine ≠ HiLine. 

A used HiLine can be a great value. A used HiLine can be a musical dud. New HiLines over the last few years seem to be better (more harmonically alive and dynamic) than older examples, despite Naim claiming they haven't changed anything. Maybe it's global warming. Maybe some small manufacturing delta. Maybe they age? Maybe I'm a dealer and trying to move new product and rubbish the second hand market. I don't know exactly or even generally why variation exists in manufactured products. Experience says they do.

And +1 to what all have said about system matching and human hearing variation and buy what lifts your socks and all that. 

Give a listen. Happier? Can afford? Maybe buy.

And I came up with a useful analogy regarding aged electronics and school reunions. I suppose one would need identical twins for this to me most useful, but it runs along the lines of 30 years on is time enough for things to go one way or another. Lots of parts in people and electronics that age differentially and sometimes haphazardly. A 30 year old amp may have been well taken care of with regular factory upgrades and another same unit may have been ridden hard day after day and never been serviced. And the second may well sound better than the first. For the people, well, you've all been to reunions. 30 years is a long time for things to go one way or another, one way or another.

winkyincanada posted:

The defining trait of science is to say that it doesn't know. Observation and experiment to reduce that uncertainty.

+1 Winky. Scientists are often quoted by the masses as "proving things". What they really do is disprove null hypotheses and make conclusions based on those findings. More about saying what isn't rather than what is.

fatcat posted:

Will Dias posted:

 (Adam, you're wasted in your present role and should consider stand-up).

 

He is standing up, he's only 4 foot 3.

It has been remarked that "You never see Mr Meredith and Berlin Fritz in the same room."

I couldn't comment. innit.

connon price posted:

And +1 to what all have said about system matching and human hearing variation and buy what lifts your socks and all that. 

Give a listen. Happier? Can afford? Maybe buy.

Agreed - I have recently spent quite a while lstening to the effect of different interconnects in my systems at home.  Some things that were immediate and apparent as very good and better  (certainly not just different) in my main system were less so in olive / chrome bumper system.

Athough to be fair I was using that system to keep the cables warm just in case it helped 

I was fortunate to be able to spend time living with the alternatives and allow them each time to bed in, and so change back, and relax. 

connon price posted:

...
Maybe it's global warming.
...

Well on this side of the pond, we finally have positive proof of global warming...

"Yorkshire Tea" 

..... which is preferable to Dorset Tea (imho) 

i hate it when people don't like the same things but of course can understand that others don't...

enjoy

ken

Yorkshire Tea - De-Caf.....why?

A late night cuppa when you have an early start

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

The defining trait of science is to say that it doesn't know. Observation and experiment to reduce that uncertainty.

+1 Winky. Scientists are often quoted by the masses as "proving things". What they really do is disprove null hypotheses and make conclusions based on those findings. More about saying what isn't rather than what is.

Precisely.  

Consider statistics in human drug trials.  The aim is (only) to prove that the observed result was NOT due to chance.  The statistics (p-value), essentially, refers to the likelihood that the observed results are due to chance.  While the statistician can tell you that it's VERY unlikely that the results were due to chance, he cannot offer any explanation as to the basis of the results.  ". . . about saying what isn't, rather than what is" as Randy put it.

Back to engineers.  I don't know a one who would say, "I prefer this cable to that, but since this cable is much more expensive, there can be no reasonable explanation for why it is better and thus my ears need to be examined."

Chris Dolan posted:

A late night cuppa when you have an early start

Ovaltine, surely!

I've never really liked Ovaltine - I do however much prefer the HiLine* to the standard lavender cable on my CD player and although others have claimed it to be flimsy I have yet to have an issue with mine.

*I think the Super Lumina is much better still as it the Chord Sarum Super ARAY - my ears my system (mems)

naim_nymph posted:

Will,

your present system components don't really need the expense of a fancy cable.

Spend your upgrade budget on the best pre-amp you can afford, 72, 82, or 52+PS

this will engineer in more music and listener satisfaction  

Debs

When I had a CDX2 - 122x / 150x pre / power I tried a Hi-line and could not hear any marked difference. However after I upgraded to CDX2/XPS - 282 / 250 I tried it again and was impressed with the improvements made hearing things in the background I had not noticed before so Debs may be right.

Chris Dolan posted:

I've never really liked Ovaltine - I do however much prefer the HiLine* to the standard lavender cable on my CD player and although others have claimed it to be flimsy I have yet to have an issue with mine.

*I think the Super Lumina is much better still as it the Chord Sarum Super ARAY - my ears my system (mems)

Didn't experience any fragility when I had a Hi-Line either 

I can hear a difference between the Hiline and Lavender on a CD5 and Nait 2 or CDS3 and SN2, just that i don't actually think the difference equals better music. I think it is smoother, more detailed and better extended but the flow of music is much worse.

gary yeowell posted:

I can hear a difference between the Hiline and Lavender on a CD5 and Nait 2 or CDS3 and SN2, just that i don't actually think the difference equals better music. I think it is smoother, more detailed and better extended but the flow of music is much worse.

Fair enough. The HiLine was specifically designed with the CD555 in mind. That you find it gelled badly with a bunch of other sources is hardly a crime or even surprising (okay, I am surprised that the result was not favorable on a CDS3). 

As long as you bought something you did like. SNAIC is always a superb upgrade over lavender at a modest cost.

A Snaic cannot be used in place of a Lavender!