Why do hifi racks cost so much?

Do they?  Assuming that Fraim is high end in comparison I doubt it is any more expensive than other quality furniture - say an Ercol dining table.

The more competitively priced stuff - Quadraspire/hi-fi racks seems to me to be very good value, fit for purpose, well made, adaptable.

Regards,

Lindsay

A guess. Volumes are relatively low which means there is no commercial case for investment in tooling.  This means each part is expensive to produce, which in turn leads to a higher overall cost.  I am sure there is also 'some level' of profiteering by some companies but my guess is that this is not quite as prevalent as some might suppose as free market competition tends to weed this out.

Matt

True, I do agree that the number of consumers desiring such items is comparatively low.  But just to add one more level for my Audiophile Starbase, it is costing me over £800.  This hifi support received great reviews giving it 5 stars as well.

And it is only MDF, yet in a shape designed to minimise vibrations, presumably.

I feel ripped off, hence the question!

Consciousmess

It's a good question. All the more difficult to answer as it's almost impossible to get a comparative demo of different racks (understandably so). I've had an Atacama for 4 years now, and when I look at it I can't really see how an upmarket rack can improve SQ that much - it seems well-made, it's got spikes, isolation pads, etc. Those on the forum who have tried "cheap" racks and more upmarket ones say there is a marked difference, and I quite believe them.

Interestingly enough, you mention Audiophile Starbase - I've started buying their isolation platforms as a way of improving my "basic" rack. It seems to work, I have a "feeling" that definition has improved (CDX2-SN2). As I got those platforms straight from the manufacturer, I met the manager/designer, who explained in detail why it is that high-end racks cost a lot (quality of the material, finding the company that will make the parts to their own standards - I don't think Naim manufacture the Fraim themselves either).

why is the hifi so expensive?

All of the above sounds plausible. Add to that supply and demand. If people are buying at the asking price, there is no need to go cheaper. And a good rack improves everything.

If you'd followed my advice and swapped your NDAC for an NDS, you wouldn't need another shelf 

Antonio1 posted:

why is the hifi so expensive?

It's not.  I just think comments like this are often made without any knowledge of what's involved in bringing a product to market.  Design,  materials, development, staff cost, tooling, premises, business rates,  And yes profit - otherwise you go bust.  Or look at it another way - the guys who represent the specialist hi-fi manufacturers at the various shows in the main hardly strike you as the filthy rich do they?

Regards,

Lindsay

Low volume, high R&D and the significant cost of manufacturing items of furniture to the kind of specification and finish seen in something like a Fraim or Hutter. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Antonio1 posted:

why is the hifi so expensive?

It's not.  I just think comments like this are often made without any knowledge of what's involved in bringing a product to market.  Design,  materials, development, staff cost, tooling, premises, business rates,  And yes profit - otherwise you go bust.  Or look at it another way - the guys who represent the specialist hi-fi manufacturers at the various shows in the main hardly strike you as the filthy rich do they?

Regards,

Lindsay

What I meant is:  good hifi is expensive, accessories are not less important than the rest. 

 One shouldn't look at it as a piece of forniture .

Because they can!

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Antonio1 posted:

why is the hifi so expensive?

It's not.  I just think comments like this are often made without any knowledge of what's involved in bringing a product to market.  Design,  materials, development, staff cost, tooling, premises, business rates,  And yes profit - otherwise you go bust.  Or look at it another way - the guys who represent the specialist hi-fi manufacturers at the various shows in the main hardly strike you as the filthy rich do they?

Regards,

Lindsay

True, but there's also the question of market positioning. As a manufacturer, you will be tempted to charge more for a product which is perceived as "upmarket". I mean, when you're selling "marque separates" (!), you are clearly targeting those with a bit more money than the rest. I have a Naim system, I also have a 15" SSD MacBook Pro... I accept that (and know that the resale value will be higher).

Antonio1 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Antonio1 posted:

why is the hifi so expensive?

It's not.  I just think comments like this are often made without any knowledge of what's involved in bringing a product to market.  Design,  materials, development, staff cost, tooling, premises, business rates,  And yes profit - otherwise you go bust.  Or look at it another way - the guys who represent the specialist hi-fi manufacturers at the various shows in the main hardly strike you as the filthy rich do they?

Regards,

Lindsay

What I meant is:  good hifi is expensive, accessories are not less important than the rest. 

 One shouldn't look at it as a piece of forniture .

Are you married??!!

It's called the market. Companies charge as much as they can for their products.  They know what consumers will pay for items and charge accordingly. I know of only one manufacturer who charges on a multiple of his cost of production. There may be others. Looking at it this way. If you could earn £100 per hour doing the same job as you do now, would you accept the pay rise ?

You mean £1,000, surely?

You can go the DIY route. I made a TNT audio flexy. Looks good and materials weren't that expensive. As others have said not easy to audition racks though. 

IIRC (standard) Fraim levels ended up costing less when they were introduced (in 2001?) than the equivalent StarBASE levels, which (in the U.S. anyway) effectively killed that option off. Standard BASE racks were not significantly cheaper, compared to their prices just five years earlier.

At this rate, the 25mm-thick IKEA bamboo cutting boards likely sound better as a platform....

While I appreciate the effect of these racks, it's indeed very expensive...... But that's what the market is all about, you can ask the price if sufficient amount of people are prepared to pay the price as they see the value at that level or above....

Just to clarify something, the StarBASE is anything but 'just a bit of MDF'. Each shelf is a very specific shape to reduce standing waves. The feet of the shelf are metal rods mounted on sorbothane, and the metal is shaped too, with (rubber? I forget) feet, also chosen to have a different resonant frequency which disrupts vibration transmission through the suspension system of the shelf. These feet fit into the location points on the StarBASE frame. This frame is partly made of MDF with precision cut location points, and hollowed out sections all designed to reduce vibration transmission both to and from the units it's supporting. The uprights are also the shape and size they are to reduce vibration. The whole system is designed in such a way so that when it is put together it performs resonance damping and vibration control. So it's hardly just a bit of MDF is it?

Now, regarding the question of cost, ordinary furniture is not designed with these parameters in mind. It is typically designed for a particular purpose such as to hold something on it (a table) or to store something, but controlling the environmental effect on the contents is not usually part of the brief. Some furniture is a happy coincidence (IKEA Lack with bottom taken out for the LP12 for example), but most furniture transmits vibration through to the contents and sometimes even amplifies it due to the resonances in the furniture itself. At the same time HiFi is a very niche market, so the amount of units sold as against the cost of tooling to furniture grade is not a natural model and the cost goes up. There is also the point of the item actually being designed for performance, and so the level of performance relates to the cost. 

And there's some profit in there for the manufacturer and dealer.

Frank.

Profit!?!?!?!

Disgusting...

Frank Abela posted:

Now, regarding the question of cost, ordinary furniture is not designed with these parameters in mind. It is typically designed for a particular purpose such as to hold something .............

but most furniture transmits vibration through to the contents and sometimes even amplifies it due to the resonances in the furniture itself. At the same time HiFi is a very niche market, so the amount of units sold as against the cost of tooling to furniture grade is not a natural model and the cost goes up. There is also the point of the item actually being designed for performance, and so the level of performance relates to the cost. 

And there's some profit in there for the manufacturer and dealer.

Frank.

You covered a lot Frank, and as usual, I agree!

But, focusing on cost, Naims intro rack ain't bad:

"It retains the cup-and-cone interface system used by its bigger brother too, but omits the dual layer base and ball-bearing decoupled glass shelf. Reference Fraim levels can be incorporated into the same system as FraimLite so that you can upgrade to our top of the range equipment support on a level-by-level basis."

I know it's hard or next to impossible to A -B Fraim vs Fraimlite, but the way I see:

Fraim = Fraimlite + Cups & Balls + Glass/Corian

Glass for Amps & PS's/ Brawns

Corian for the Brains, which allows room for experimenting!

Just some Thoughts!

Allante93!

Hifi racks may be expensive for what they are but at least it is a piece of furniture that can be used for something else like storing books or making a plant support. Cabling on the other hand... 

I have found that the more Naim boxes you have, the better your return on a Fraim investment is.   We have 11 levels of Fraim to accommodate a Verdier turntable, separate motor, Superline, Supercap, 555, 2x555 PS, 552, 552PS, 500, 500PS. We had most of this on an Arcici Suspense Rack, primarily to isolate the turntable.   When I relaxed that constraint, the turntable suffered for lack of isolation but the rest of the system sounds so much better.  The Fraim allows you to get the fullest benefit of your Naim bargain and makes your set up sound the best it can.

In context, the improvement is quite disproportionate  to the cost, and quite obvious.   When you think of the cost of the cable upgrade compared to the cost of the component, or the cost of the cartridge relative to the cost of the turntable and arm, the Fraim is a bargain in proportion to the cost of your system, and it requires zero break in after setup!   It is right there, totally plug and play and immediate.  With a cable or a cartridge or even a component, there is always at least a little thumb sucking:  Have I done the right thing?   Will it sound better with break in?   Will anybody notice besides me?   Will anyone besides me care?   With a Fraim in the system, the upgrade slaps you in the face and there is no doubt about it.

We do use an IsoBlue on our NaitXS system, and a simple flea market TV stand under the UQ2b and the MuSo.

My lovely wife with hypersensitive hearing thinks the Fraim looks and sounds better!  We get nothing but compliments when friends visit.   Pleasing her enough to love a living room full of Naim boxes, and a pair of Proacs,  is a bargain at any price.   But without regard to her approval, the Fraim is still a no brainer.  

Skip posted:

................We do use an IsoBlue on our NaitXS system, and a simple flea market TV stand under the UQ2b and the MuSo.

My lovely wife with hypersensitive hearing thinks the Fraim looks and sounds better!  We get nothing but compliments when friends visit.   Pleasing her enough to love a living room full of Naim boxes, and a pair of Proacs,  is a bargain at any price.   But without regard to her approval, the Fraim is still a no brainer.  

Well Skip, you've also said a lot.  I agree with your lovely wife, the Naim rack looks fine. However, in my mind, defining fine means displaying the Naim gear.

Hence, Naim does a fine job highlighting its gear.

I'm no Engineer, but I think, there are three key factors that make up a high-quality Hi-Fi Racking System:

1. Isolation

2 Rigidity

3. Lightweight

I've noticed that these three factors are Incorporated within reference HiFi racks.

Furthermore, I would imagine that three contact points, as opposed to four, would fall under the criteria of isolation.

I've noticed some fine Racks out there, whose design appears to support more weight than Naim's design.

I do seem to recall, when I was researching Fraim and Fraimlite, their design was limited to 6 Tiers!

This limitation, to my mind, is a plus factor, because it supports the third criteria.

Just some thoughts!

out !

Allante 93!

Often the cost is high because people will pay the price.