Cost of Wind Power

Guy007 posted:

Mike if the wind is 'all bran' regular that's half the battle, and I'm sure it's a lot of A/C it's powering.  I use to work for the electrical operator here and even with the best 'prediction algorithm' company's software it gave the grid operators a headache...

 The wind farm known as & located in the San Gorgonio Pass was chosen because of the naturally regular & stable wind flows caused by warm desert air mixing with cooler coastal air that give wind speeds averaging 24 to 32km/hr (15 to 20mph). They are strongest during the summer months when electricity demands are at their highest - Palm Springs is a winter resort & the population is at its lowest in summer when temperatures are typically over 40'C - its able to power Palm Springs & Coachella Valley with a population of almost 350,000.

Reflecting on the content of this thread to date, I agree with Mike that fracking is one way forward that we should exploit.

The other is Small Modular Reactors SMRs. The sort of thing Rolls Royce build and put into our nuclear powered submarines. Good by EdF, goodbye China, hello Derby (or wherever it is that RR manufacture these things).

I understand that through-life generating costs are more in line with coal than the subsidised £90 per megawatthour agreed with EdF.

Thoughts ?

A bit of a milestone today:   At the moment - 12 noon Saturday morning - we have zero coal power generation.  Its the first time that I know of during a daytime period.   

The stats also show Wind @ 2.79GW & I consider that a low number considering the general breezy UK @ 14 mph mean speed for the whole country

Nuclear 8.33GW  -  CCGT 11.03GW  -  Wind 2.79GW  -  Coal 0.00GW   

Other power sources are  Pumped 0.30GW - Hydro 0.44GW - Biomass 1.38GW - French ICT 1.80GW - Dutch ICT 0.90GW - Irish ICT 0.00GW - E-W ICT 0.19GW  ...........   to make up a demand of 26.93GW)

27 GW? Has somebody got their triamped Statements turned up to 11? 

Mike-B posted:

The stats also show Wind @ 2.79GW & I consider that a low number considering the general breezy UK @ 14 mph mean speed for the whole country

Must be the wrong type of wind.

I also quite like the look of wind farms, and don't consider them to be an eyesore.

I pass one near the A1 at Biggleswade every day and I think it looks great. Farmland and wind farms seem ideal bedfellows. 

............  just as one cow does not make a farm,  ditto one turbine.  .........  & 100% disagree that fields & farmland look great,   this is the unacceptable face of wind power !!!!

Stirling Castle ............ no thanks 

Wind turbines are an affront to minkind. And birds.

Small Modular Reactors from RR are the solution.

Don Atkinson posted:

Small Modular Reactors from RR are the solution. 

100%  ..........  I wonder if the delayed decision on Hinkley Point are considering the same ????   Even better if it is RR or at least british design & built.     http://euanmearns.com/the-uks-...reactor-competition/

Now what about some fracking & freeing up our growing reliance on Russian gas

UK has four pumped storage generation installations.    The most powerful (jnt 7th most powerful on earth) is Dinorwig in Wales with 1.8GW maximum output & a total stored capacity of 9.1GW/hr.  However Cruachan although it has less maximum power with 0.4GW it has the largest UK total stored capacity of 10GW/hr. 

Mike-B posted:

UK has four pumped storage generation installations.    The most powerful (jnt 7th most powerful on earth) is Dinorwig in Wales with 1.8GW maximum output & a total stored capacity of 9.1GW/hr.  However Cruachan although it has less maximum power with 0.4GW it has the largest UK total stored capacity of 10GW/hr. 

Just a minor bit of editing Mike (gawd, I do hope i'm right when I do this !!!!) the stored capacity of these facilities is measured in Giga Watt Hours, rather than Giga Watts per Hour.

Cheers Don (the nit-picker)

Whoops    !!!!!    yer nit-pickin' dun good Don.   Guilty as charged,  I need to sharpen up my picker

  .........  it is GWh  (not GW/hr)

I have posted another entry, but it seems to have gone to the Mods for approval. Probably something to do with that home-grown source of gas other than the North Sea.

But I'm sure I didn't mis-spell it !!

  you didn't use the "F" word,  did you ??

Frank F posted:

Dozey posted:

I also quite like the look of wind farms, and don't consider them to be an eyesore.

I pass one near the A1 at Biggleswade every day and I think it looks great. Farmland and wind farms seem ideal bedfellows. 

Donald Trump won't agree with you especially if his hotels can see them.  BUT when he is president he will ban them all.

IMO the problem with wind power is that it is not always there when you need it. Proper storage of energy is part of the solution, we have a pumped water storage system here - pump up to a high level reservoir over night when demand is low THEN - let it go!!

FF

The pumped water schemes were built for a slightly  different purpose. It was to store surplus energy produced by nuclear stations that couldn't be turned off. They were also useful in providing a short-term rapid-response to peak demands, or in the event of partial filure elsewhere in the system.

Today, they are seen as storage to be used when "renewables" ie mainly wind, inconveniently stop generating. Trouble is, wind now generates far more power than we have storage facilities to back it up. And we don't have too many more storage facility sites available for development. So instead we have to have both wind and standby capacity (eg gas) - which is expensive in terms of capital investment and overall cost.

Instead, I think a few more large nuclear sites, lots of RR SMRs and a few large fracking-gas sites would work wonders, together with the odd coal/bio-mass generators for the sake of nostalgia........... and of course, the hydro sites.

These legendary RR SMRs aren't they the devices that are causing all of the UK's fleet of Type 45 destroyers to be in Portsmouth at the same time.  Are they?

Derek Wright posted:

These legendary RR SMRs aren't they the devices that are causing all of the UK's fleet of Type 45 destroyers to be in Portsmouth at the same time.  Are they?

I believe the Type 45's are using a Rolls Royce gas turbine powerplant. The RR SMR's are nuclear reactors used in submarines.

No, those ships have conventional engine units.

And for all those hanging their hope on SMRs, the need for ONR licensing may represent a significant challenge. A land-based SMR cannot be simply towed into deep water and sunk should it 'misbehave.'

Mike-B posted:

Derek Wright posted:

These legendary RR SMRs aren't they the devices that are causing all of the UK's fleet of Type 45 destroyers to be in Portsmouth at the same time.  Are they?

The problem is the RR WR-21 engines (gas turbines) don't operate in warm water.  They were spec'd by Labour (& particular blame against Defence Sec Geoff Hoon) against all advice.   They entered service starting 2010 & have been non-stop problems,  now its planned for the electric power generators to be replaced with larger size units & that takes some load off the WR-21's.  Then a study is underway to replace the ER-21.  Meanwhile T-45's will not be deploying in the tropics - lets hope the mideast doesn't kick off again.   

.............this is what happens when politicians make decisions...............

look what happened on 23rd June 2016 for more evidence of the same................

......and Hinkley

......and the aeroplanes for a couple of carriers

..............and HS2

.....and.....and,,,,,,,,,and

Cheers, Don (before I get depressed !!)

organised by the same folk that organised the initial Chinook order - the dreaded MOD

Derek Wright posted:

These legendary RR SMRs aren't they the devices that are causing all of the UK's fleet of Type 45 destroyers to be in Portsmouth at the same time.  Are they?

Sorry folks,  I've deleted the original post & added more info so it's all out of sync.  

 The problem is the RR WR-21 engines (gas turbines) don't operate in warm water.  They were spec'd by Labour (& particular blame against Defence Sec Geoff Hoon) against all advice.   They entered service starting 2010 & have been non-stop problems:  two WR-21 & two 2MW diesel generators provide AC power for the ships propulsion motor & power for the ships weapons, sensors lighting etc.  The turbines themselves are not the problem, but they have an intercooler that recovers heat from the exhaust & recycles it making it more fuel-efficient. The problem is with the intercooler unit.   When the WR-21's go down the electrical load on the diesel generators is too much & the ship has no power or propulsion.     It's now its planned for the electric power generators to be replaced with larger size units & a plan is supposed to be in place to replace or rework the WR-21's.   Meanwhile T-45's will not be deploying in the tropics - lets hope the mideast doesn't kick off again.