SACD/CD/BLU-RAY-player or transport into Naim DAC-V1

I beleive that HDMI is the only accepted way to transmit SACD info to a DAC. The standard doesn't allow Coax to do this.  

Oppo Blue Ray players are excellent, but they convert SACD to PCM over the Coax.

Brubacca posted:

I beleive that HDMI is the only accepted way to transmit SACD info to a DAC. The standard doesn't allow Coax to do this.  

Not true, dsd64 works with the Naim DAC via coax. SACD audio is dsd64. I think Naim DAC V1 should be fine with dsd64 via coax as well (based on its spec), also I think that with async USB, you should not have any issue with dsd128 into the Naim DAC v1.

Peter Dinh posted:

Brubacca posted:

I beleive that HDMI is the only accepted way to transmit SACD info to a DAC. The standard doesn't allow Coax to do this.  

Not true, dsd64 works with the Naim DAC via coax. SACD audio is dsd64. I think Naim DAC V1 should be fine with dsd64 via coax as well (based on its spec), also I think that with async USB, you should not have any issue with dsd128 into the Naim DAC v1.

Brubacca is correct; although the V1 is able to accept DSD files, no SACD player will transmit a DSD signal through anything but HDMI.

Correct - copyright protection means that SACD players can only output PCM over it's digital connections.

I'd recommend Oppo 105 - a very versatile player, with excellent DACs if you'd like to plug it directly to your amp.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Correct - copyright protection means that SACD players can only output PCM over it's digital connections.

Are you sure that is the reason? You might find that it's because until recently with the advent of the  DoP kludge there was no way of sending a delta sigma bit stream (DSD) via a consumer digital interface such as SPDIF and as far as I aware HDMI also sends as DoP.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Correct - copyright protection means that SACD players can only output PCM over it's digital connections.

Are you sure that is the reason? You might find that it's because until recently with the advent of the  DoP kludge there was no way of sending a delta sigma bit stream (DSD) via a consumer digital interface such as SPDIF.

Simon

Good point Simon.

That is the reason stated in the Oppo manual. To be honest I think it's a bit rubbish - if DSD can be sent via HDMI so why not via Optical or Coaxial....

Adam, I just edited my previous post, I think HDMI also sends DSD in PCM stereo sample words (DoP).. but yes if this is so then equally DSD64 can be sent on a regular SPDIF interface. It might be the SACD players don't have the chipsets to support this ... yet ... if demand was higher I'm sure they would.  There might be the possibility of HDMI device authentication of course.. But I can't remember whether that was for video or the entire interface.

Technically give me SPDIF over HDMI any day... The data flow for stereo PCM can be quite bursty on HDMI....whereas with SPDIF it's still sliced up but less severely. (Receiver cross talk issues)

Simon

IIRC, the only way to extract the DSD stream from SACD is to use an modified older model Sony Playstation. I second the recommendation for Oppo 103/105 disc players - excellent meachines, and great product support.

AFAIK there are only two ways to get at the digital hi-res content of an SACD:

• Rip the SACD with certain old, hacked PlayStations (must support SACD and must not be newer than a certain firmware level to allow for the hacking)
• Some SACD players convert DSD to hi-res PCM on the fly when using HDMI as output. There are HDMI switches (eg Octava) that reportedly can extract that signal via TOSLINK.

Agree that the only apparantly legal method of ripping an SACD (i.e.to get an .iso file) is via the the PS3 method.

Once the .iso file is on your computer, IME Audirvana - Macs only- can play them natively or converted to PCM into the V1 (with latest firmware).  I guess there are other software players for PC and Mac that could do this.

Plenty of stuff on the web about the method of using PS3 to rip.

Jude

It was the original PS3 with a older firmware that allowed a customized Linux to be run on it. These machines can rip a SACD. 

tonym posted:

Peter Dinh posted:

Brubacca posted:

I beleive that HDMI is the only accepted way to transmit SACD info to a DAC. The standard doesn't allow Coax to do this.  

Not true, dsd64 works with the Naim DAC via coax. SACD audio is dsd64. I think Naim DAC V1 should be fine with dsd64 via coax as well (based on its spec), also I think that with async USB, you should not have any issue with dsd128 into the Naim DAC v1.

Brubacca is correct; although the V1 is able to accept DSD files, no SACD player will transmit a DSD signal through anything but HDMI.

I see, sorry for the incorrect statement, never owned a SACD player. However, it looks like it is not  a technical issue, just a copyright one, but it seems to me that it is very silly not to support dsd via coax.

Thanks for all replies!

I agree indeed that it's all too silly to deny dsd playback through digital coax because of copyright problems.

One shouldn't have to go through all the bother of old PS3's and firmwares and what not to be able to get the best possible playback from a disc bought and paid for. Shame on Sony or whoever for that.

I guess I 'll have to look for a good universal player with a good dsd-dac then. What other options than Oppo 105? Do they convert to 88,2 or 176,4 kHz sampling rate playback?

Erlend.

Erlend posted:

Do they convert to 88,2 or 176,4 kHz sampling rate playback?

What exactly do you mean by 'convert'?

Oppo is a player / renderer of HiRes audio up to 192 kHZ / 24 bit or DSD64....

Adam Zielinski posted:

Erlend posted:

Do they convert to 88,2 or 176,4 kHz sampling rate playback?

What exactly do you mean by 'convert'?

Oppo is a player / renderer of HiRes audio up to 192 kHZ / 24 bit or DSD64....

I mean that if the digital output is a 24-bit pcm signal instead of a direct stream 1-bit signal, then the output ought to have a sample rate of 88,2 kHz or 176,4 kHz. Maybe I have misunderstood, but wouldn't the player's internal dac have to convert the sacd signal first?

Some current popular quality DAC chips such as from TI can operate with either PCM or Delta Sigma bit streams and so no sample data format conversion is required.

The SACD player's internal DAC would do what all DACs do i.e. convert the digital signal to an analogue signal.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Some current popular quality DAC chips such as from TI can operate with either PCM or Delta Sigma bit streams and so no sample data format conversion is required.

OK. Thanks. So if I use such a player with a sacd record and feed it into my DAC-V1 by digital coax or optical cable, what format will my dac recognize the feed it is given?

Will it recognize it as pcm or dsd? When I feed it through usb the display always tells the sampling rate if it's given pcm and if it's dsd64 or dsd128 if given dsf-files.

sjbabbey posted:

The SACD player's internal DAC would do what all DACs do i.e. convert the digital signal to an analogue signal.

I see, but my DAC-V1 has only digital inputs, so I couldn't take the analog signal from the SACD player. I will have to make do with what's fed from the digital outputs.

Wouldn't it just be nice or even perfect if Naim came up with a multidisc transport in the same shoebox format as  the dac-v1 and nap100 that would enable playback of CDs as well as SACDs, Pure Audio Blu-Rays and DVD-As? With BNC output and all.

Erlend posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Some current popular quality DAC chips such as from TI can operate with either PCM or Delta Sigma bit streams and so no sample data format conversion is required.

OK. Thanks. So if I use such a player with a sacd record and feed it into my DAC-V1 by digital coax or optical cable, what format will my dac recognize the feed it is given?

Will it recognize it as pcm or dsd? When I feed it through usb the display always tells the sampling rate if it's given pcm and if it's dsd64 or dsd128 if given dsf-files.

The signal will be PCM. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

Erlend posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Some current popular quality DAC chips such as from TI can operate with either PCM or Delta Sigma bit streams and so no sample data format conversion is required.

OK. Thanks. So if I use such a player with a sacd record and feed it into my DAC-V1 by digital coax or optical cable, what format will my dac recognize the feed it is given?

Will it recognize it as pcm or dsd? When I feed it through usb the display always tells the sampling rate if it's given pcm and if it's dsd64 or dsd128 if given dsf-files.

The signal will be PCM. 

I'm not up-to-date with current players, but indeed due to copyright issues, PCM output used to be limited to 48kHz

Another possibility... Audiopraise Vanity HD board fitted to an Oppo 103/105, can be configured to send SACD via DoP over SPDIF to a compatible DAC (such as the DAC V1). 

As I understand it, the HDMI limitation is down to the insistence of copy protection which has never been implemented on SPDIF. A few manufacturers created digital links using FireWire or Cat5 cabling. 

Eloise posted:

Another possibility... Audiopraise Vanity HD board fitted to an Oppo 103/105, can be configured to send SACD via DoP over SPDIF to a compatible DAC (such as the DAC V1). 

As I understand it, the HDMI limitation is down to the insistence of copy protection which has never been implemented on SPDIF. A few manufacturers created digital links using FireWire or Cat5 cabling. 

I believe it was the other way around

HDMI was unlimited because it requires a handshake protocol between two devices which agree upon which resolution to use in the exchange. This allows for some protection that  a 'legitimate' AV-device is taking the HDMi-signal like Av-receivers.

It was with the SPDIF interfaces that no inherent protection was available and PCM over SPDIF was limited to 48 kHz sample rate.

There are indeed several HDMI-splitters that will allow splitting off the digital audio signal from HDmI into an SpDIF interface, while retaining high resolution. My old version of the Octava splitter had to have a modified EDID chip for setting up a high resolution HDMI handshake, but worked wonderfully well and reliable. I believe modern versions no longer require this modification.

@Aleg... I think I worded that badly.

i was meaning the "limitation where HDMI is required to pass DSD digitally"