Sonore micro rendu- dlna vs roon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Is anyone running a microRendu into a Chord Hugo? If so what are the opinions?

Simon,

Not yet.

However, I have ordered a microRendu with a view to using it with my Chord Hugo. I don't have an estimated arrival date yet, but will post my findings when it arrives.

I currently use my Hugo with my ND5XS streamer (& non-Naim PSU), and have until recently been quite sceptical about the effect a different transport would make to the SQ, but having read quite a few articles recently, I was considering purchasing a used NDX to compare with the ND5XS into the Chord in my 2nd (AV) system, on the basis that I could sell one of the two Naim streamers quite easily. However, having recently read about the microRendu in a number of places (including this forum), I have been tempted to give this a go because of its price. I'll post my views when I get the unit.

Just a couple of things to ponder on. The first is a USB cable to attach the device to the Hugo. Up until now I have only very briefly tried the USB input into the Hugo using a laptop and JRiver to try out DSD files prior to Naim making DSD available via their streamers. At the time I just used a bog standard computer USB to micro USB cable. I haven't got a decent USB cable to hand, and am finding it difficult to identify a decent (very) reasonably priced so called 'audiophile' micro USB cable that will fit my Hugo (which I am pretty sure has the original chassis) I understand for example that an Audioquest Cinnamon micro USB lead may not fit. Any suggestions? Has anyone found a decent micro USB cable for a 'Mark 1' Hugo?

The second is that the 2 power supplies I am considering for the microRendu (SBooster 6v BOTW P&P Eco or TPardo 7/2 7v) are not currently in stock in the UK, so it may take some time for one to arrive (when I finally make up my mind about which to order). So, in the short term I will be using  the relatively cheap 9v iFi power supply that is often bundled with the microRendu, and not particularly well reviewed elsewhere.

I guess if the microRendu/Hugo combination sounds impressive with the limitations of a bog standard USB cable and the cheap iFi power supply, then thing swill be looking good.

A bit of a punt from me on the basis of a number of reviews in a number of places, but then a similar punt with the Hugo turned up trumps.

I'll let you know.        

Hmack posted:

I have ordered a microRendu with a view to using it with my Chord Hugo. I don't have an estimated arrival date yet, but will post my findings when it arrives.

I currently use my Hugo with my ND5XS streamer (& non-Naim PSU), and have until recently been quite sceptical about the effect a different transport would make to the SQ, but having read quite a few articles recently, I was considering purchasing a used NDX to compare with the ND5XS into the Chord in my 2nd (AV) system, on the basis that I could sell one of the two Naim streamers quite easily. However, having recently read about the microRendu in a number of places (including this forum), I have been tempted to give this a go because of its price. I'll post my views when I get the unit.

Just a couple of things to ponder on. The first is a USB cable to attach the device to the Hugo. Up until now I have only very briefly tried the USB input into the Hugo using a laptop and JRiver to try out DSD files prior to Naim making DSD available via their streamers. At the time I just used a bog standard computer USB to micro USB cable. I haven't got a decent USB cable to hand, and am finding it difficult to identify a decent (very) reasonably priced so called 'audiophile' micro USB cable that will fit my Hugo (which I am pretty sure has the original chassis) I understand for example that an Audioquest Cinnamon micro USB lead may not fit. Any suggestions? Has anyone found a decent micro USB cable for a 'Mark 1' Hugo?

Having previously used an ND5XS into Hugo, then switched to AUdirvana on Mac Mini through a Gustard U12 isolator, there is indeed a difference between renderers. What is interesting is how the mR compares to each of these others. (NB, any Mac Mini solution not with dedicated Usb output bypassing the MM's soundcard and not with an effective isolator before Hugo is inherently compromised)

Mr Underhill, Hmack and IB .. Thanks for your comments

It might be worth knowing that, in another place, Rob Watts is now saying that even the DAVE with its galvanic isolation is not completely immune from the effects of RF on the USB input. He is now recommending those to who use a DAVE and want the ultimate in quality to either use their laptop on batteries, or as a second best to use an Audioquest jitterbug. Given that the Hugo has no galvanic isolation I would guess that it might be much more susceptible to noise issues from a USB source, so different sources could be expects to sound different, but it might also be the case that instead of messing about with different sources it would be better to investigate ways of isolating the source effectively in the first place.. A Gustard USB to spdif isolator is one way, an Intona USB isolator might be another, and I dare say there are other possibilities. 

I have been told by Vortexbox UK that the mR is galvanically isolated. I got a U12 delivered today and am currently using it to stream from the mR > U12 > Bel Canto 3.5vb, very good.

M

I am having really good results serving my DNLA with a Windows 7 PC running Fidelizer (free). To my ears it is noticeably better than just a NAS. Also am using a Audioquest Pearl Ethernet Cable.  Currently using MinimServer.  I don't love how it presents on my Kazoo Tablet.  I tried the latest Asset Upnp, but it was skipping midway through songs.  

Transients seem more tight/defined. 

Mr Underhill posted:

I have been told by Vortexbox UK that the mR is galvanically isolated. I got a U12 delivered today and am currently using it to stream from the mR > U12 > Bel Canto 3.5vb, very good.

M

I think that the Ethernet input of the mR might be galvanically isolated, but I can find no reference to the claim that the USB output is galvanically isolated. Do you have a link to a statement by the manufacturer or a designer that this is the case?

No. Martin mentioned it to me on the phone, I had an 'issue' with my Oppo 105D and while we were discussing it he made that statement. As it happened the issue was nothing to do with the mR - and took me two weeks to sort out!

Looking at the Computer Audiophile, where I knew I had read about g. isolation they specifically mention the network input. I'll drop Martin an email and see if he can confirm.

M

Mr Underhill posted:

No. Martin mentioned it to me on the phone, I had an 'issue' with my Oppo 105D and while we were discussing it he made that statement. As it happened the issue was nothing to do with the mR - and took me two weeks to sort out!

Looking at the Computer Audiophile, where I knew I had read about g. isolation they specifically mention the network input. I'll drop Martin an email and see if he can confirm.

M

If the USB output is galvanically isolated I am surprised that Sonore themselves make no mention of it. But it does seem to have John Swenson/Regen type USB reclocking, though that is not the same thing as g.i.. Me, I'd want to see a statement from the manufacturer or designer to confirm.

likesmusic posted:

Mr Underhill posted:

I have been told by Vortexbox UK that the mR is galvanically isolated. I got a U12 delivered today and am currently using it to stream from the mR > U12 > Bel Canto 3.5vb, very good.

M

I think that the Ethernet input of the mR might be galvanically isolated, but I can find no reference to the claim that the USB output is galvanically isolated. Do you have a link to a statement by the manufacturer or a designer that this is the case?

Ethernet is always galvanically isolated - if its not its not compliant with the physical ethernet specification and most likely would not reliably work. Remember Galvanic isolation is primarily about DC (hence the name) and very low frequencies as opposed to RF - it effectively breaks the direct path between two circuits so as to break ground loops and modulated ground currents to allow circuits of different ground potentials to be connected.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Is anyone running a microRendu into a Chord Hugo? If so what are the opinions?

Not the Hugo but with a 2Qute, so very similar.

The microRendu (standard PSU) has been running with Roon (iMac) continuously for a week now and I'm delighted with the improvement compared to streaming via the 272.

Whilst the 272 is excellent, Roon > microRendu > 2Qute > 272 is considerably better to my ears. The sound appears to have more detail, a larger sound stage and just provides a more open window on the recording. I've switched back and forth several times and come to the same conclusion every time. 

A big surprise has been the improvement on 44.1KHz CD rips which have come to life.

One fundamental difference between Hugo and 2qute is latter has galvanic isolation. I don't know whether or not it also has better RF filtering. Preventing RF into the DAC internals is vital for best performance - though I don't know what the mR's output is like ( for comparison, Mac Mini USB output, even in dedicated bus mode, is a problem due to RF and needs an isolator between it and Hugo or performance is degraded. Same is not true of the HugoTT which has better filtering built in - though apparently Chord's designer is now suggesting that even on its flagship Dave, additional RF filtering is needed if the source is noisy. What I don't know is how noisy the mR is compared to MM, and it will almost certainly vary with the power supply. But perhaps (?) it doesn't introduce more RF than that from the power supply, unlike a computer where no improving the power supply can reduce but not  stop all the noise on its output.

On a Mac Mini, a good isolator like the Gustard makes it unnecessary to improve the MM's power supply - Maybe that is true of the mR, unless there are other reasons for doing so. Something worth comparing if anyone has both a high quality power supply for the mR and a Gustard, and is using running amp and speakers that are sufficiently analytical.

Thanks, yes the Hugo has extensive internal RF filtering on its numerous internal power supplies and circuitry .. which is why it is so effective, however it's USB inputs are designed for low ground noise floating devices such as portable devices and uses no galvanic isolation on those inputs. However I read the microRendu has been designed to provide floating very low ground plane noise (IE one of its main benefits) and there are some reports it sounds exceptional with the Hugo.. and one US review says it sounds better than the TT which does use a different USB input circuit which has been designed to mitigate  noisier USB sources. If you read various engineering discussion docs you can see inductively coupled galvanic isolation can affect signal timing depending on the signal.. it's not a free lunch. Hence my comments of direct experiences with Hugo ideally playing into Naim amplification.. Prevention is better than cure.

thanks

S

The microRendu has a Regen USB cleaner built in. The whole point of the unit is to bring a low noise connection via USB so as to stream to USB from the LAN. No idea bout the Hugo, though I don't see why it wouldn't work as well as the reports coming from a myriad of other dacs, galvanic isolation or not. It's truly an amazing little unit that just continues to open up the music like I never thought possible (or could afford). 

Simon,

I hope to post some of my opinions of the SQ of the microRendu into the Chord Hugo, but the arrival of visitors dictates that I won't be able to do this until next weekend at the earliest.

Unfortunately, I don't have Naim amplification, so perhaps not entirely relevant to you, but I will post my opinion of microRendu into Hugo vs ND5XS/TP XPS into Hugo (Krell AV pre/power amps in stereo mode) and also microRendu into Hugo vs Linn Klimax Renew DS (Lindemman pre/power amps).

The microRendu setup will include the cheap iFi power supply (the power supply I will probably buy is currently out of stock) and a cheapo (very) USB cable. All I will say at the moment is that things are looking and sounding pretty good for the microRendu so far. I am really looking forward to some more extended listening come next weekend.    

charlesphoto posted:

The microRendu has a Regen USB cleaner built in. The whole point of the unit is to bring a low noise connection via USB so as to stream to USB from the LAN. 

This is the principle reason I'm planning to try the UpTone Audio UltraCap LPS-1 with my microRendu.  It will serve as a high quality power supply in many contexts but from John Swenson’s comments over at CA it's very much being designed with the microRendu in mind. It's interesting that he's been fundamentally involved in all three projects.

Hmack, thanks, I look forward to your comments.

S

I have just been listening to some hi-res music via the microRendu/Hugo on my AV system, and although I won't be able to do a proper comparison until next weekend, I can't resist posting to say that I am stunned by  what I have heard today. Dynamics, soundstage and the clarity and timbre of individual instruments sound way better than I have heard previously on this system.

I may be over-reacting, but I don't think so. I will have more time to try a larger selection of music, and to be a little more objective next weekend. I had been very sceptical indeed  (to put it mildly) about the possibility of any real audible effect of individual 'renderers', and of posts in the past claiming that, for example, an NDX into a Hugo could possibly sound better, even different from an ND5 into a Hugo. Just 3 or 4 hours listening to music played via the microRendu into Hugo has completely convinced me that I was wrong.

I will certainly be adding a better power supply in the near future, and might even get around to eating a second metaphorical hat, and purchasing a decent (within reason) USB cable to fit between my microRendu and Hugo. I may even have to purchase a second microRendu and Hugo combination if my tests on my main system go the way I now expect next weekend.         

Welcome to the club.  

As you say the resolving ability of this little box, whether HiDef or CD for me, is phenomenal. Listening to notes that are sustained for a looooooooong time, or drums that are not just struck but resound.

Been listening to the mR into my Bel Canto for the last couple of days. As much as I have enjoyed the Oppo, and what a great piece of kit it is, the BC places these pieces in a beautifully realised sound stage.

M

Hmack posted:

I

I will certainly be adding a better power supply in the near future, and might even get around to eating a second metaphorical hat, and purchasing a decent (within reason) USB cable to fit between my microRendu and Hugo. I may even have to purchase a second microRendu and Hugo combination if my tests on my main system go the way I now expect next weekend.         

What, I wonder,, is the benefit of a better power supply, given that electrical noise/RF are apparently removed at the output (and unlike analog components there aren't dynamics to contend with?

The primary consideration with the usb cable would seem to be preventing Rf pickup, so the screening is probably the prime focus, with ferrites.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hmack posted:

I

I will certainly be adding a better power supply in the near future, and might even get around to eating a second metaphorical hat, and purchasing a decent (within reason) USB cable to fit between my microRendu and Hugo. I may even have to purchase a second microRendu and Hugo combination if my tests on my main system go the way I now expect next weekend.         

What, I wonder,, is the benefit of a better power supply, given that electrical noise/RF are apparently removed at the output (and unlike analog components there aren't dynamics to contend with?

The primary consideration with the usb cable would seem to be preventing Rf pickup, so the screening is probably the prime focus, with ferrites.

I really don't know, other than that a number of people whose reviews I trust have indicated that a better power supply makes a significant difference in respect of improved SQ.

I may not find this to be the case, but having been very surprised by what I have heard so far and having had several pre-conceptions turned on their heads, I reckon that its certainly worth a try. We are not talking about a cost akin to that of a Naim XS series power supply, let alone a 500 series. The power supplies I will be considering range from around £215 to £300.

Again, I really need more time to listen to the microRendu/Hugo, but from what I have heard so far, my impression is that the addition of the microRendu to the Hugo has a more significant impact on sound quality than originally adding the Hugo to my ND5XS/TP XPS. Most definitely not what I had expected.      

Hmack posted:

Again, I really need more time to listen to the microRendu/Hugo, but from what I have heard so far, my impression is that the addition of the microRendu to the Hugo has a more significant impact on sound quality than originally adding the Hugo to my ND5XS/TP XPS. Most definitely not what I had expected.      

Much the same as I found Audirvana (on a Mac Mini, through a Gustard isolator) into Hugo to be better than ND5XS into Hugo.  I await your more detailed feedback with interest!

Got a reply from Vortexbox UK:

It is just the RJ45 that is galvanically isolated.

M

So given that the mR doesn't have galvanically isolated output as suggested, this very likely explains the power supply differences, depending on the DAC used. It would be interesting to compare, into Hugo at least as it is known to be susceptible to RF, mR with different power supplies with and without Gustard. My expectation is that with the Gustard there will be negligible if any difference between power supplies, compared to noticeable difference without it.

If that is correct, the question then would possibly which sounds better, best power supply without Gustard, which uses Hugo's usb input, or cheap power supply with Gustard, into electrical SPDIf (though that won't indicate if any difference is power supply vs Gustard, or usb vs spdif).