On the borderline of being a mullet – but it sounds really good!

ryder. posted:

Something is obviously very wrong with this post below and some of the trailing responses which share the same sentiment that was suggested by Naimiac. I feel compelled to respond.

I am not sure if it has got anything to do with the term "mullet", though I cannot see how the impression about the OP "exhibiting his wealth" on this thread was formed. It is just another sharing of the joy of some new acquisition and is not very different from other posts about someone upgrading to some Naim top-flight 500 series of components or Super Lumina cables.

And what is it about the "worshipping sheep" remark? I actually share the happiness of the owner's new speakers and enjoy reading posts such as these. This community is all about sharing, not only information but also the joy and happiness of acquiring new gear. There is not a hint or impression of what that had been suggested in the post below, at least to me. I really don't understand this hostility and personally feel that it is all uncalled for. 

Naimiac posted:

A guy calling a 'mullet' a system with an electronic/cabling/accessories front end about €70.000 worth.... Exhibiting his wealth to a flock of worshipping sheep. This place has become absurd, and frankly unbearable. I know that I won't be regretted, but I formally ask Mr. Dane to cancel my account, now.

 

Thanks

Naimiac 

 

Thank you very much Ryder, Gary, Allante93!, Wunderbaum and Adam! 

Ryder, you have understood the purpose of my post. I’m very very happy with my new speakers. I’m just trying to make an interesting post and describing (in pictures and text) my journey and were I ended up. Since I have read a lot of posts on the forum I thought that I really should put in a good effort and try to give something back to the forum. The goal was to contribute and share experience and happiness.

I’m a bit surprised and disappointed by the negative and hostile remarks. Remarks like that is a limiting factor and makes this forum a bit less fun… 

/Marcus

Bart posted:

Bart posted:

Marcus -- please take a detour and tell me about your life with the Audio Physic speakers  I have thought about auditioning different speakers at home "just because" and that brand is on my short list; my local dealer sells them (so I can have an easy free in-home demo for a week), and he suggests I might like them as I enjoy very "open" sound and he thinks they pair well with Naim (I would be driving them with a SN2).  Those Virgo 25's would be at the top of my price point if not exceeding it ($14,000 for the pair).

How did you enjoy them?

Marcus when you pry yourself away from your great new speakers, please

Hi Bart!

I actually answered your question yesterday with this text:

Hi Bart!

Well, at the time when I got the Audio Physic Virgo 25 (which was 4 years ago) I had a different system. My system at the time was NDX, NAC202, NAP200. I think that I also had XPS DR, NAPSC and HiCap DR but are not 100% sure if I had them all. I used NACA5 and all Naim standard cables that comes with the black box. My NDX used wifi and was not connected with a Ethernet cabel.

Our combined livingroom/kitchen is 55 square meters and it’s 3,7 meter to the ceiling over the stereo. Quite a big volume to fill with sound. We have a classic Scandinavian design with wood, stone and leather and not over furnished. In other words the room is a bit at the hard side, I would say.

I have had a few dealers and distributors at my house demonstrating different things and all have said that my room is better than expected and not bad at all. They also said that the big volume is beneficial, but I don’t really know. Maybe they just tried to be nice.

At that time I got some listening fatigue when I listened to my system at higher sound level. I had a discussion with my dealer and after adding the XPS DR, NAPSC and HiCap DR things got a little better. He recommended me to maybe also look at other speakers as the next step since the speakers can “alter” the sound quite a bit. They have different sound signatures, obviously…

Just as this time (when I got the Titans) I visited a few dealers and demoed quite a lot of speakers in the price range 5-10k euro. Elac, Focal, Audiovector to name a few were to “sharp” in the higher frequencies. Ovators was a bit dull but when I heard the Virgo 25 that was something else. They had, presence, high resolution but was softer and not as sharp and edgy as some of the other I compared them to. I was a bit concerned about the side firing bass units but tried them at home. I really liked them and they worked well in my room so I ordered a pair.

They sure have a big and airy soundstage but are a bit laid back and not so “in your face” as for example Audiovector.

My Virgo 25 was actually not embarrassed when I tried Audiovector SR6AA, B&W 803D3 and Marten Bird 2 at home. Sure the other three had a bit higher resolution, more precense and were clearly better when I played very well recorded music. When I played bad recordings, heavy metal and other music with much energy in the high frequencies I actually still preferred my Audio Physic Virgo 25.

With Virgo 25 you will not get the highest resolution on the market. You will not get a speaker that goes down to 20 Hz. You will not get a speaker that can fill a very large room with bass at concert sound level. You also have to place them with some space around.

On the other hand you will get a fun, forgiving speaker (against bad recordings) with good resolution and a big and airy soundstage. They sound good at both low and high sound level and are just begging to be played. You can also listen for hours without fatigue.

They are also quite nice to look at and have a high WAF.

At the time they were the best ones that I found in the price bracket together with my system. I guess that they mask (or at least did not highlight) some weaknesses in my system.

Give them a try. You might like them

When you say they cost $14,000 for the pair, is that for Virgo 25 or Virgo 25 plus?

I never heard the “plus-version” but I’ve been told that they are a step up in performace compared to the normal Virgo 25 that I had…

I hope that you understand my description of the Virgo 25 and somehow finds it helpful 

/Marcus

I hope it’s okay. If you have any other questions about the Virgo 25 that you think that I can help you with feel free to ask and I will try my best… 

/Marcus

Naimiac posted:

A guy calling a 'mullet' a system with an electronic/cabling/accessories front end about €70.000 worth.... Exhibiting his wealth to a flock of worshipping sheep. This place has become absurd, and frankly unbearable. I know that I won't be regretted, but I formally ask Mr. Dane to cancel my account, now.

 

Thanks

Naimiac 

I hate the way people beat around the bush on here, why don't you say what you really think?  Personally I think they look great and I suspect they will sound better

christoph posted:

Naimiac posted:

A guy calling a 'mullet' a system with an electronic/cabling/accessories front end about €70.000 worth.... Exhibiting his wealth to a flock of worshipping sheep. This place has become absurd, and frankly unbearable. I know that I won't be regretted, but I formally ask Mr. Dane to cancel my account, now.

 

Thanks

Naimiac 

when i had my first naim, forum was friendly and helpful, now i have a bigger naim, forum is friendly and helpful (and my english isn't very good ). i think it is not so very important here how much money you have or how much money you spend on hifi. we are all interested in the same thing, and that is important and therefore i like this forum. christoph 

Hi Christoph!

I fully agree with you! To be able to ask questions and read reviews are very important for us that don’t live in the UK. It’s not always possible to demo certain products and the forum may be the only source of information for some people…

It was not easy for me to demo the Titans and if it hadn’t been for all the positive remarks about the Titans here on the forum I probably never would have gone through with it.

Now I have a very good speaker that I’m very happy with, in some extent thanks to the forum 

/Marcus

Adam Zielinski posted:

MarcusM posted:

Skip posted:

Great series.  Living in the US, I had never seen the Titans.   I have admired the posts praising them.  

You wife is a unique woman to have preferred them over the others.  Did she prefer the sound or something else about them?  I don't think they would fly at my house.

You might benefit from the Fraim system now that you have done everything else you can do.  It is not a small benefit.

Hi Skip!

Yes, my wife is a wonderful women and very tolerant when it comes to my hifi hobby. Normally I show a few photos from internet and she says if the speakers would be welcome in our living room or not. If she says okay to their look then I can go and listen to them. If she says no there is no point listening to them...

She thought that the Titans was okay but not the best looking speakers around. I agree with her. I find them more brutal than cute… It’s in sound quality rather than looks that they excel 

My wife is not very interested in the sound of different components and are happy with whatever I choose.

Yes, I guess that a Fraim would make a big difference but Fraim is not allowed in our living room due to their looks…

/Marcus

Marcus - is your wife by any chance related to mine? The selection criteria are virtually identical

Don't get too stressed by earlier posts here - I think you have a wonderful system and I'm happy you've found speakers that do it justice.

Adam

Thank you Adam!

Yes, maybe they are related 

Are you also only allowed to choose black and maybe white speakers? 

/Marcus

Hook posted:

Congrats on the new speakers Marcus - they look fabulous!  Appreciate you sharing the story of your home demos and selection process.  In other words...

ATB from 

Hook (the Sheep) 

Thank you Hook!

I was just trying to help and inspire… 

/Marcus

dayjay posted:

Naimiac posted:

A guy calling a 'mullet' a system with an electronic/cabling/accessories front end about €70.000 worth.... Exhibiting his wealth to a flock of worshipping sheep. This place has become absurd, and frankly unbearable. I know that I won't be regretted, but I formally ask Mr. Dane to cancel my account, now.

 

Thanks

Naimiac 

I hate the way people beat around the bush on here, why don't you say what you really think?  Personally I think they look great and I suspect they will sound better

Thank you Dayjay!

Yes, they sound better than they look if you ask me… 

/Marcus

MarcusM posted:I hope that you understand my description of the Virgo 25 and somehow finds it helpful 

/Marcus

I hope it’s okay. If you have any other questions about the Virgo 25 that you think that I can help you with feel free to ask and I will try my best… 

/Marcus

Thank you so much Marcus!  What you describe as the attributes of the Virgo 25 is much of what I tend to enjoy in speakers.  I have a strong feeling that is why my local dealer picked those out for me if/when I want to do a home demo.  I am not sure what he has in stock -- Virgo 25's or 25 plus.

I have a relatively small room (by US standards) 20 feet long by 13 feet wide (6 meters x 4 meters).  We have to sit and set up the speakers the "short way" and so currently the seating is about 8 feet (2.45 meters) from the speakers which places them close to but not up against the back wall.  And like you we favor Scandinavian furniture, and while we have a lot of furniture the floors are wood with no rugs, and no fabric window treatments.  So it is a 'hard' room.  Thus I cannot listen too loud anyway.  And my amplification is about as much power as you had with your 202/200 system.

I appreciate your comments, thank you!  ~Bart

Marcus

Re: your first question on my comment 'what is the fundamental reason behind a post...' - I was being a little bit sarcastic to the poster who requested that his account be cancellled 

Rw: speaker colour - any colour is acceptable in the living room, as long as it's piano black 

Enjoy the music,

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

Rw: speaker colour - any colour is acceptable in the living room, as long as it's piano black 

Enjoy the music,

Adam

...so i guess mine would not be approved at your home??? (it does have its advantages to have a home office;-)

Not in the living room - this one is off limits to anything but piano black.
I do have Ovatros in Black Zerbano in a music room - my wife said  'at least I don't have to look at them too often'

Marcus,

Great result and great read.

I share your opinion of the Sopras but if possible could you let me know what put you off the Neat XL6 as they are on my shortlist.

Best regards,

Lindsay

MarcusM posted:

So, which speakers were the most interesting candidates? Apart from the ones I bought (I will not tell you that just yet ) I tried 4 different speakers at home in my system. Here are two of them:

Besides B&W 803D3 and Marten Bird 2 I also tested Audiovector SR6 Avantgarde Arreté and Neat XL6 in my system at home. All really good speakers but they all had some shortcomings that I could not live with. At least not for that kind of money… 

 

Before the thread changed what was the shortcommings of these speakers? I have tried to find out the price for the titans, but they are enough pricy so that it is hard to find prices on the net, so not cheap.

Claus

 

b

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Marcus,

Great result and great read.

I share your opinion of the Sopras but if possible could you let me know what put you off the Neat XL6 as they are on my shortlist.

Best regards,

Lindsay

I agree, great read.

Also curious about the Neats, as you know Strat, the listening environment plays an important role.

I was wondering about the manufacturer's design, and how it would integrate with Marcus's Room.

( ""Concept: 2.5-way bass reflex tower with super tweeters and isobaric bass system

Dimensions and weight: 22 x 37 x 100 cm (WxHxD), 40kg/ea.

Sensitivity: 87dB/W/m

Nominal impedance: 8 ohms

Other: Biwire sockets, upfiring super tweeters, downfiring woofers...""), and being rear ported.

 Nice being on the sideline, soaking up Information.

Allante93!

As a paraplegic (with foot and leg pain being the only feeling i have) I can definitely sympathize and also recognize how much more important just sitting and listening to music has become. I was wondering if your rack can go higher? Possibly 2 more tiers and then place it on the column (where the spare speakers are shown in the pics). Might look odd,but that and maybe amp stand on the floor would open up the space between the speakers. I still think that would make for a tremendous improvement in sq (certainly soundstage). Either way,enjoy your system. think I'll update my profile for my system btw.

Hello Marcus,

As a five year owner of your new loudspeakers' predecessor (T88) I've been following your new adventures in Hi-Fi (an REM album, no less!) with interest. Part of what drove your decision to choose them, was possibly the same as mine. 

My loudspeakers like yours are sited relatively close to the back wall in a modest sized room. Most big boxes in that sort of position turn into bass monsters. One of the really great things about the Titans is their out of phase isobaric bass-loading which makes clean, extended and controlled bass available in such compromised locations.

A transparent lucid mid-band, and sparkling detailed top end complete a delicious musical palette for me.

Congratulations on your new acquisition and good listening.

John.

Hi Marcus,

Thanks for an entertaining and interesting post. I was quite shocked by the sudden intrusion of hostile comments. Hopefully most of us here don't feel remotely that way about the posts of high end equipment. Congratulations on your new purchase and I hope you get lots of enjoyment from them over the years. 

Best regards

Mark

All this negativity on this post is depressing.I have been reading HiFi forums for years and never encountered snide comments about the owner showing off his wealth etc on System pics threads on The Wam or Pink Fish.

Thanks for posting a interesting thread Markus I found it a great story and the bit about your son put a smile on my face.The pics where great and I liked the bit where you left your final decision on what speaker you had elected to go for.I couldn't work it out on page 1.

Liked your comments defending the snide comments.You come over as a really nice guy.

Cheers Ian

Bart posted:

MarcusM posted:I hope that you understand my description of the Virgo 25 and somehow finds it helpful 

/Marcus

I hope it’s okay. If you have any other questions about the Virgo 25 that you think that I can help you with feel free to ask and I will try my best… 

/Marcus

Thank you so much Marcus!  What you describe as the attributes of the Virgo 25 is much of what I tend to enjoy in speakers.  I have a strong feeling that is why my local dealer picked those out for me if/when I want to do a home demo.  I am not sure what he has in stock -- Virgo 25's or 25 plus.

I have a relatively small room (by US standards) 20 feet long by 13 feet wide (6 meters x 4 meters).  We have to sit and set up the speakers the "short way" and so currently the seating is about 8 feet (2.45 meters) from the speakers which places them close to but not up against the back wall.  And like you we favor Scandinavian furniture, and while we have a lot of furniture the floors are wood with no rugs, and no fabric window treatments.  So it is a 'hard' room.  Thus I cannot listen too loud anyway.  And my amplification is about as much power as you had with your 202/200 system.

I appreciate your comments, thank you!  ~Bart

My pleasure to try to help, Bart 

Why don’t you give the Virgo 25 a try in your room or at least go and listen to them at your dealer as a first step?

Your dealer seem to know what type of sound you prefer and picked them out as a hot candidate for you…

I tried my Virgo 25 in a few different positions and did not think that the difference was very big if I placed them 30 or 60cm from the back wall. To me they seemed surprisingly placement friendly.

When the kids were small they stood closer to the back wall. Now when the kids is a bit bigger I had them 50cm from the back wall with some toe-in. My listening position is approximately 3 m from the speakers.

A room at the size of 6 x 4 meters should be fine and to sit 2,5 meters from the speakers should work even if it’s maybe not optimal. We all have to do different compromises, which is fine. Just try them at home before you make up your mind!

Good luck! 

/Marcus

Wunderbaum posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Rw: speaker colour - any colour is acceptable in the living room, as long as it's piano black 

Enjoy the music,

Adam

...so i guess mine would not be approved at your home??? (it does have its advantages to have a home office;-)

Really cool looking speakers, Wunderbaum 

They would not be approved in our home even though the color matches the Naim-logo on the black boxes 

/Marcus

Marcus,

Thank you for sharing your experience. What a fantastic adventure and you have some truly great speakers. They are next on my shopping list when Derek designs a smaller version to replace my Kudos S20.

Regards,

Nick

elkman70 posted:

Marcus,

Thank you for sharing your experience. What a fantastic adventure and you have some truly great speakers. They are next on my shopping list when Derek designs a smaller version to replace my Kudos S20

I completely agree - including the Kudos S20s replacement plan 

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

 

 

Before the thread changed what was the shortcommings of these speakers? I have tried to find out the price for the titans, but they are enough pricy so that it is hard to find prices on the net, so not cheap.

Claus

 

Hi Claus!

Which speakers do you mean that you are interested in knowing the shortcomings off, for me in my room?

I think that I have described what I didn’t like about Marten Bird 2, Focal Sopra No2 and Audiovector SR6AA in other posts in this thread.

I have also received the same question regarding the Neat XL6. I will try to answer that in a little while… 

Yes, unfortunately the Titan 808 are very expensive. On the other hand they delivered the performance I was looking for and to pay almost as much but not be completely content is a worse alternative, I think… 

The price for Titan 808 in UK seems to be £21,250 per pair.

/Marcus

MarcusM posted:

Yes, unfortunately the Titan 808 are very expensive. On the other hand they delivered the performance I was looking for and to pay almost as much but not be completely content is a worse alternative, I think… 

The price for Titan 808 in UK seems to be £21,250 per pair.

/Marcus

Yes, it is unfortunate!

But in the world we live in, there's usually, not always, a relationship between price and quality.

"The 808’s minimal crossover is a two-and-a-half-way design, where the bass section in the lower cabinet is rolled off early in the frequency range; the mid/bass driver and tweeter are then operated as a two-way design.  A slow roll-off from all the drivers ensures optimal coherence though the crossover regions.

Each speaker consists of an independent upper and lower cabinet, separated by precision-machined spacers and a port resonance guide. The upper cabinet houses the tweeter and mid/bass drive unit while the lower cabinet houses the two bass drivers. These are positioned in an isobaric arrangement, where the second driver is placed internally back-to-back with the first.""

I see why they worked in your room, also that rear porting guide probably allowed closer placement to the wall!

You lucky devil!

Enjoy!

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Marcus,

Great result and great read.

I share your opinion of the Sopras but if possible could you let me know what put you off the Neat XL6 as they are on my shortlist.

Best regards,

Lindsay

I agree, great read.

Also curious about the Neats, as you know Strat, the listening environment plays an important role.

I was wondering about the manufacturer's design, and how it would integrate with Marcus's Room.

( ""Concept: 2.5-way bass reflex tower with super tweeters and isobaric bass system

Dimensions and weight: 22 x 37 x 100 cm (WxHxD), 40kg/ea.

Sensitivity: 87dB/W/m

Nominal impedance: 8 ohms

Other: Biwire sockets, upfiring super tweeters, downfiring woofers...""), and being rear ported.

 Nice being on the sideline, soaking up Information.

Allante93!

Lindsay and Allante93!, I will try to answer your question regarding the Neat XL6. As always this is my opinion of the speakers in my room and with my ears… 

Unfortunately I didn’t get to listen to them for several days but at least several hours. On the other hand I had professional help setting them up and tuning them in 

The Swedish Naim, Chord and Neat distributor visited me at my home. They helped me optimize my system and after that we listened to the Neat XL6 and finally tried out a few different Chord Ethernet cables. They are really nice guys and we spent 8 very interesting hours together 

I was surprised by the effect of different Ethernet cables and a few weeks after I invested in 3 chord cables for my system.

We started out listening a little to my system. After that we removed my Audio Physic speakers and the two guys started to work with the cables on the back of my system. They said that I had mad quite a good job by myself but they changed a few small things and connected and disconnected the cables repeatedly to clean the connection points of the cables…

After that exercise it was time to install the Neat XL6. They worked with the set-up and we quite easily heard a difference in sound when the speakers were moved another 5cm from the back wall or when the toe-in was changed. We agreed that we had found a good position for them.

They also said that the XL6 sounded pretty good in my listening room. Maybe my room was a little bit “hard” but the big volume helped a lot to get a good sound.

I never heard such a big difference before when speakers are moved such small steps. My conclusion was that the Neat XL6 were quite sensitive to placement and the closest distance from the back wall were the speakers started to be “optimal” were quite far out from the back wall. They did not require much toe-in but a bit…

After the speaker placement was optimized I listened to well-known music for a few hours. We had a nice lunch break in between all the listening with pizza and interesting discussions 

To me the sound from the XL6 was a bit harsh and edgy in the top frequencies. Medium to bad recordings was wearing to listen to, to my ears. Big warning for listening fatigue if listening to high volume. The bass was a bit on the lean side and there was almost missing a little fundament in the music.

The soundstage was big and the speakers played with very good presence. Voices were lifelike and nice. The general perception to me was still that they were a little “shouty” and “in your face” with a bit to lean sound and a bit bass fundament was missing.

Maybe they would work better in a smaller and heavier damped room?

On the minus side was also the fact that they seemed to be placement sensitive and needed to stand a bit too far out from the back wall in my room. I was not convinced with the look either, but that’s very personal. To me the “front baffle” (I think it’s called) looks “glued on” with the black piece on the top and front of the speaker. The demo pair I listened to was in some kind of darker brown wood…

I think that the proportions of the XL10 is much better in pictures, but that’s off course personal.

The guys had to take the XL6 with them since they should be used in an event the day after. I was promised to borrow them for a few days at a later stage if I were interested. I did not feel the need to borrow them since they were not what I was looking for. After a few weeks we talked again and I was told that they had bought another pair of XL6. The new pair did not have “bi-wiring-connection” but single wiring. This made a difference for the better when connected with single wire. Can be good to know...

We also talked about the XL10 and I was assured that the top end is a bit sweeter and that there is a much better bass fundament with the XL10. I would have loved to hear the XL10 but the distributor did not have any at hand. They should get a pair that I could listen to but that was several months away.

Shortly after I had listened to Neat XL6 I heard the Kudos Titan 808 and fell in love with their sound. I think that the Neat XL10 would have fitted my sound ideal better than the XL6 did but I still think that I would have preferred the Titans by some margin so why wait a few months to get that confirmed. I had already waited 1,5 years since my speaker journey started and I ordered the Titans.

I figured that even if the XL10 would have been better than the XL6 I guess that they would still share the same sound character which I did not like with the XL6…

I think that just about summers it up. I hope that you are satisfied with my answer 

/Marcus