On the borderline of being a mullet – but it sounds really good!
Posted by: MarcusM on 12 July 2016
Hi fellow forum members!
I have changed my speakers and thought I would write a few lines about it. I have never posted pictures here before but will try my best. It’s more fun with pictures 
I always like informative posts from people upgrading their gear and thought I should pay back a little by describing my journey. Just keep in mind that English is not my native language… 
Okay, so I started to think about new speakers approximately 1,5 years ago. My system at the time was:
Source: NDS + 555PS DR
Pre: NAC252 + SC DR
Power: NAP300
Speakers: Audio Physic Virgo 25
Full loam of Super Lumina cables and PowerLines.
As a power distribution unit I used Shunyata Triton with a Shunyata Anaconda power chord. I’m now using a MusicLine distribution block instead, but that’s a different story...
Since I started to evaluate different speakers I have also upgraded my Ethernet cables to Chord C-stream (from NAS to wall outlet and from wall outlet to switch) and Chord Sarum Super Aray from switch to my NDS. A surprisingly big improvement in my system…
Here is my system before the speaker change:
The reason for me to start thinking about new speakers was that I had a feeling that my old speakers was a little strained when played at high volume. Don’t get me wrong, I really liked my old speakers but I had a feeling the sound could be more solid and also have higher resolution and presence in the music.
I visited a few “demo-days” at different dealers and also arranged a number of demos when I came across an interesting speaker. Here in Sweden not all speakers of interest is possible to demo but I listened to quite a few different brands and models. Some were excluded if they were sensitive for placement or a very difficult load. A NAP300 is a really good amp but I believe it could not handle the more difficult speakers. Wrong or not, this was my approach…
The goal was off course to end up with a system that I could live with for a very long time without feeling that I needed to upgrade something else to get the system right. That’s why I for example wanted to stay clear of speakers that are difficult to drive…
Before somebody point out an obvious alternative I can say that I also was thinking of the mighty NAC552. There is only one dealer here in Sweden that has a NAC552 and its over 500 km away from where I live. A home audition would have been very hard to arrange and to compare the benefits from a speaker upgrade to the benefits from a preamp upgrade would have been close to impossible.
I talked to the distributor here in Sweden. Lovely guys by the way! They offered me a home loan of a NAC552 but they would order it from Naim just for me to try and I had to promise to be quite convinced that I would buy it if it delivered a good upgrade over my current NAC252. A fair deal but I would have felt obliged to buy it even if new speakers would have been a greater upgrade.
After thinking about it for some time I concluded that a NAC552 would maybe be the best move based on performance but I would still feel the need to upgrade my speakers. My goal was to not end up there, wanting to upgrade something else directly after a big upgrade. Therefor I decided that the NAC552 have to wait and to go for great speakers instead for better system balance.
I hope you follow my thoughts and find them reasonably sane… 
Chris Dolan posted:Allante93 posted:Fraim = Fraimlite + Naim Glass, Cups & Balls.
Yes sort of. Fraimlite also omits the dual layer base but the wooden shelf shape is different and far less elegant when not actually used
The dual base is a critical part of the design I've always thought. As well as that, there are no cutouts for the cups. It doesn't look anything like as nice as proper Fraim.
Gunnar posted:Hej Marcus,
Very interesting and for me a good learning. I am very soon into the same nice “problem” you just have solved. If I read right you started thinking one and a half year ago. Must be relaxing now!
Myself I am in the final stage of changing my old Naim which are 140, 72, Hi Cap, CD2 and with BC Niger as loudspeakers. No complains they have worked very well for 21 years and still do so. With my retirement we move back to the French part of Alsace and it would be nice with a big Naim upgrade as I will get time to listen to music. My nice, friendly, loving and understanding wife gave me the greenlight as long as the loudspeakers are white or maybe black. By the way Marcus. We have a similar background. My hometown is the big city about 400 km northeast of where you live.
As always I started with a low budget which increased overtime and what are on order and will be delivered early September are similar to yours. I bought NAP 300 DR, NAC 552 with PS DR, NDS with 555 PS DR and a full line of SL interconnects, mains and loudspeaker cables. Storage will be done by a Melco. All put on two Fraimlites.
Still to decide are loudspeakers. I decided first to get the Naim equipment installed and thereafter aim for loudspeakers. Meantime I can continue to use my Nigers.
Never the less with the Naim installation I will get a home demo of the new Sopra no 3 (white). For sure I would also like to listen to others speakers at home such as Neat XL10, B&W 802 D3, Magico S1 mkll and yours Titan which were not on my radarscreen.
What I have found is that it is very difficult to evaluate a loudspeaker at a dealershop. Not just for the difficulties to find the same electronics as at home. I have listened to several brands including the Sopra 2 a few times. For example the Sopra 2 in one audition as not impressing to another audition to near perfect. Near perfect (for my ears) with electronics close to what I am buying so want to give the no3 a first try.
For me it is a question of finding loudspeakers in my neighbourhood. All of the highend dealer are minimum 70 km away. But as retired I will have time.
For info. Our livingroom is 7 m * 4,6 m. Ceiling 3 m and is part of a big open room (90 m2) including kitchen and diningroom. The big room is as an L with the loudspeakers on the bottom right side. Listening distance to the speakers are 4,7 meter and the speakers can have close to 3 meters between them.
Enjoy!
Gunnar
I’m glad that you liked my thread, Gunnar! 
You have a really nice and well balanced system on order and come September you will have an exciting time in front of you. 
Congratulations!
I’ll never been to Alsace but it’s on my “to do list”. I heard it’s really nice! I have a former college from there and he gave me some traveling advice about were to live and what to visit if I go there. I hope I can go there in a few years time…
Have you been living abroad for a long time or will you move from Sweden to France now since you are retiring?
Your plan of installing your system first and starting to look for speakers after some time sounds very smart. Enjoy your new system, let it break-in and then start looking for speakers.
There are obviously a lot of different speakers available and I don’t know what will be available for you to listen to in the area around your house in Alsace. Your list of speakers including Focal Sopra No3, Neat XL10, B&W 802D3, Magico S1 and Kudos Titans sounds like a very good start.
Focal Sopra No2 was nothing for me but many people here on the forum seems to be very impressed with them. If Neat XL10 is a big step up from XL6 they will be very good and interesting speakers to try out. B&W 802D3 did I compare to 803D3 in the store and then I tried 803D3 at home. 802D3 was obviously better but they require to be placed far out in the room. They are very deep and even if you place them 40cm from the back wall the front will be over 1m out in the room. I was also a bit uncertain if a NAP300 is enough to fully control the 802D3. I never heard Magico but have been told that they are very good.
Yes, you did understand correctly. I looked for new speakers for 1,5 years. I was in no hurry and took the opportunities to listen to different speakers when they showed up…
Enjoy your new system and then your journey to find the right speakers for you, with your system in your room
/Marcus
Wilko posted:Saw the Titans in the window of a store in the West Country of England and asked to hear them, having read this thread. They were on the end of an all-Esoteric system and £3000 of speaker cables. Played an old Naim sampler CD as they had no high-res – when I asked for jazz they suggested Pink Floyd! I could not believe how appalling the sound was. Piano and bass sounded as though recorded in different places, completely divorced. Charlie Haden's bass a mushy thump and the piano agonisingly harsh and digital. I don't entirely blame the Titans as it's obvious the dealer didn't have a clue how to set up a system, but it cured me of the desire to hear them again. A lesson in the old truth that you have to hear speakers properly set up with your system in your room to reach a reliable judgment.
Hi Wilko!
Too bad you got to listen to the Titans in a bad set-up system. I have never heard an esoteric system but when I googled it I found out that it’s a Japanese high end brand. At least it looked like that…
I only heard Kudos Titan 808 in two different systems. Ones in Jonas 500-system and in my own much simpler system. The Titans have been very impressive in both systems so I’m a bit surprised to hear that you found them that bad in the esoteric system… 
Do you know anything about the esoteric system? Is it warm/cold in its character? Is it rated highly in the hifi world? What’s the price?
Could the esoteric and Kudos just be a very bad match up or did the dealer just screwed it up completely?
I did not think that was possible since the Titans is so “room friendly”, easy to drive and forgiving yet high resolved.
If you get a chance to hear the Titans with a good Naim-system you will hopefully get a totally different view of the titans. Don’t write them off until you have heard them with a good set-up Naim system… 
/Marcus
Hi Wilko!Too bad you got to listen to the Titans in a bad set-up system. I have never heard an esoteric system but when I googled it I found out that it’s a Japanese high end brand. At least it looked like that…
I only heard Kudos Titan 808 in two different systems. Ones in Jonas 500-system and in my own much simpler system. The Titans have been very impressive in both systems so I’m a bit surprised to hear that you found them that bad in the esoteric system…
Do you know anything about the esoteric system? Is it warm/cold in its character? Is it rated highly in the hifi world? What’s the price?
Could the esoteric and Kudos just be a very bad match up or did the dealer just screwed it up completely?
I did not think that was possible since the Titans is so “room friendly”, easy to drive and forgiving yet high resolved.
If you get a chance to hear the Titans with a good Naim-system you will hopefully get a totally different view of the titans. Don’t write them off until you have heard them with a good set-up Naim system…
/Marcus
One speaker to rule them all? I am sure that is my audiovector sr6.
Claus
Gunnar posted:Marcus,
A few days ago I sent you an e-mail to the mailadress you have in your profile. Did you got it?
Gunnar
Hi Gunnar!
Sorry that I haven’t answered your e-mail. I have been away for a few days and arrived back home yesterday evening. After a few days away from my system I really needed to hear some proper music when I got home instead of the car stereo. I will answer your e-mail shortly
Maybe a bit strange but one of the worst things about being away from home is that I miss the music that my system generates and the feeling of having the artist in the room…
Right now I’m listening to “Melissa Horn – jag går nu” if you want to listen to a melancholic album in Swedish. I think it’s really good.
/Marcus
Claus-Thoegersen posted:Jonas Olofsson posted:Only heard Audiovectors a couple of times, long time ago. Got the idea that they are quite analytical with a bit bright top? I'm sure different people are looking for different sound but maybe I'm wrong here?
//Jonas
I suppose since we are in Naim land that analytic is negative, meaning that you hear all the details in the music but not the music itself. This is at all not my experience with Audiovector. They are dynamic and revealing and I really like the AMT tweeter but if you are not used to it I am sure it can be perceived as bright.
Claus
Hi Claus!
Speakers is very personal so quit logical that we all like different speakers. I’m glad for you that you have found your dream speakers in the Audiovector SR6 AA
Have you heard Kudos Titan 808 and how would you describe the difference between them and your Audiovectors?
I have heard Audiovector on quite a few occasions. Mostly Si3 and SR3 AA at my dealer during different demos. I have heard SR6 on 4 occasions. 3 times for a few hours in the store and for a few days at home.
As I wrote before, on well recorded music they are really good speakers to my ears. On normal to bad recordings I don’t like the sound very much. To my ears the top end is a bit analytic, hard and bright which give me listening fatigue quite quickly. I’m not so sure that this is something that “I need to get used to”. I rather think that I’m quite sensitive to a bright top end and that I need to choose another speaker.
On all occasions that I’ve heard Audiovector my feeling have always been the same. Impressed by the first few songs when the personal in the store have chosen some really good hifi recording. When we after that have played “normal” music I can’t get along with the AMT tweeter.
The tweeter is much better on the Avantgarde Arreté version but still not perfect for me.
I find the presentations to much “in your face” and a bit “shouty” if you understand what I mean?
As I wrote before I also felt that the bass was not perfectly integrated in the music either when I heard the SR6. Maybe a set-up mistake but this was my feeling both in the store and at home.
I really wanted to like them as my Naim-dealer only had Audiovector and Ovators but I can’t buy a speaker that are really good on 10% of my music okay on 40% and give me listening fatigue on the rest 50%, or something like that 
With the Kudos Titan I’ve found a speaker that is much more to my liking. Just as detailed (highly resolved) as the SR6 AA but softer and more velvet like in the top end. The bass goes deeper and are even more solid then in the SR6. All parts are very well integrated and I just hear music instead of hearing the different parts of the speaker. They are also very musical and fun. Even if the bottom end (bass) and top end (tweeter) is very impressive I believe that the midrange is the most impressive part of the sound. Vocals are just so natural and lifelike. I wouldn’t consider changing my Titans for any other speaker that I’ve heard to this date
This is off course to my ears and we all hear different things.
The only area were I think that Audiovector SR6 AA outperforms the Titans are on looks. The SR6 is a really good looking speaker with high WAF. Titan 808 is more brutal looking and oozes of build quality. I like their look but was afraid that my wife would not approve them.
Claus, by the way, have you heard Marten Bird 2? To my ears they had some similar character as Audiovector with their ceramic elements…
/Marcus
ClausHi Claus!
Speakers is very personal so quit logical that we all like different speakers. I’m glad for you that you have found your dream speakers in the Audiovector SR6 AA
Have you heard Kudos Titan 808 and how would you describe the difference between them and your Audiovectors?
No unfortunately not. There are not many serious hifi shops in Denmark, and most of them is in Cophenhagen. I am not sure that Titans are sold in Denmark.
I have heard Audiovector on quite a few occasions. Mostly Si3 and SR3 AA at my dealer during different demos. I have heard SR6 on 4 occasions. 3 times for a few hours in the store and for a few days at home.
As I wrote before, on well recorded music they are really good speakers to my ears. On normal to bad recordings I don’t like the sound very much. To my ears the top end is a bit analytic, hard and bright which give me listening fatigue quite quickly. I’m not so sure that this is something that “I need to get used to”. I rather think that I’m quite sensitive to a bright top end and that I need to choose another speaker.
On all occasions that I’ve heard Audiovector my feeling have always been the same. Impressed by the first few songs when the personal in the store have chosen some really good hifi recording. When we after that have played “normal” music I can’t get along with the AMT tweeter.
The tweeter is much better on the Avantgarde Arreté version but still not perfect for me.
I find the presentations to much “in your face” and a bit “shouty” if you understand what I mean?
As I wrote before I also felt that the bass was not perfectly integrated in the music either when I heard the SR6. Maybe a set-up mistake but this was my feeling both in the store and at home.
I really wanted to like them as my Naim-dealer only had Audiovector and Ovators but I can’t buy a speaker that are really good on 10% of my music okay on 40% and give me listening fatigue on the rest 50%, or something like that
As you say speakers are very personal. I wonder if we get use to the speakers we like or select speakers from preferences we have from the start.
I agree I would never buy a speaker that only works well with hifi recordings, this makes no sense at all, so if a speaker only works with chosen hifi recordings I agree it is not a speaker I would buy!
I do not have the problem with the AMT tweeter at all! On the other hand when I heard one of the earlier highend Focal models at Naim I allmost from the start had problems with something in the presentation. Upper midrange were accented in a way I really did not like. When I heard the new Sopra models 2 and 3 things had improved, but even then I would not change to Focals, but others here on the forum with naim gear really like Focal speakers both the older models and the
latest Sopra models.
Claus
@marcusm Lovely system and those speakers certainly looks great. I bet your system sounds great. Good to see another Swedish "naimee" 
Nothing wrong with Melissa Horn, but I wonder how your system sounds with "Led Zep- Dazed and confused" for example played really loud 
Magnus Hultstrand posted:@marcusm Lovely system and those speakers certainly looks great. I bet your system sounds great. Good to see another Swedish "naimee"
Hi Magnus!
Thank you! Yes, good that we are a couple of “Swedes” on the forum! Where in Sweden are you located? I’m located close to Gothenburg.
Led Zeppelin is normally not my first choice of music but I’m open to all suggestions and happily tries new music. Sometimes I find it hard to decide what to listen to so all suggestions are welcome 
I found a live version of Dazed and Confused from O2 Arena in London on Tidal. When my wife and kids were out I tried it quite loud as you requested. It sounded pretty good, I must say. A very good live feeling!
I mean, no system can transform that kind of music to something sweet and delicate but that are obviously not the goal. Instead it sounded quite life like and alive with good dynamics and a high live feeling.
If I would listen to this song very loud 10 times in a row I would for sure get listening fatigue but on most of the other speakers I demoed at home I would have had the same feeling much quicker. Probably after half a song. I don’t think that this genre of music is possible to listen to very loud on any system without a certain amount of listening fatigue, or maybe it’s just me and my taste of music
I’m still amazed that the Kudos Titan are so highly resolved (at least as high as the other speakers I tried at home) but still not edgy or hard as some of the others. I really like the sound my Titans produces
If you have more suggestions of songs to listen to please feel free to send me an e-mail. My e-mail address is in my profile.
/Marcus
Claus-Thoegersen posted:Claus...
No unfortunately not. There are not many serious hifi shops in Denmark, and most of them is in Cophenhagen. I am not sure that Titans are sold in Denmark.
...
I do not have the problem with the AMT tweeter at all! On the other hand when I heard one of the earlier highend Focal models at Naim I allmost from the start had problems with something in the presentation. Upper midrange were accented in a way I really did not like. When I heard the new Sopra models 2 and 3 things had improved, but even then I would not change to Focals, but others here on the forum with naim gear really like Focal speakers both the older models and the latest Sopra models.
Claus
Hi Claus!
I checked Kudos homepage and there are listed distributors in Sweden, Norway and Finland but not Denmark. I guess that Kudos are not sold in Denmark, yet…
Unfortunately I never heard Focal speakers with Naim. A dealer I visited when I bought my old Audio Physic speakers sold both Naim and Focal but did not recommend me to listen to the 1028 and 1038 he had for demo. He said that it was not a very good match to his ears and that he had several other alternatives that were better.
When I listened to Sopra No2 it was with Devialet, Karan Acoustics and a quite advanced system with mono blocks which I don’t recall the name off…
I did not care much for the sound with any of the electronics and felt no need to test Sopra No2 at home in my own system 
/Marcus