Niza / Nice

Yes it's so sad, I don't hope we will be forced to get to Israel security level in Europe....

Yes condolences to everyone touched by this. 

So sad, but sad also that difficult to see where all this will end. Just about anything can become a weapon to someone who wants to harm. I don't now how we will ever get rid of the intent to do harm.

It is indeed awful and sickening. With regard to security, I note France is in a state of emergency yet  two weeks ago I drove from Italy through Switzerland into France and we sailed through all the borders and were not even asked for passports and the Swiss / French border point was deserted. I am not saying that the mass murderer in Nice came from outside France, but it does make you wonder what the State of Emergency means.. I would have expected more scrutiny at borders as part of it. Certainly when I got to the UK all docs were checked and there was a mini questioning session at the UK border.

More sad fanatical events. There's probably no level of security that can guard against those who will take advantage of our individual liberties. It's part of the cost of living in a free society. Anything can be used as weapon. The grand scheme would be to remove the level of societal despair these perpetrators feel, but that seems an impossible task and deviants will always persist. Much compassion for the innocent victims.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

It is indeed awful and sickening. With regard to security, I note France is in a state of emergency yet  two weeks ago I drove from Italy through Switzerland into France and we sailed through all the borders and were not even asked for passports and the Swiss / French border point was deserted. I am not saying that the mass murderer in Nice came from outside France, but it does make you wonder what the State of Emergency means.. I would have expected more scrutiny at borders as part of it. Certainly when I got to the UK all docs were checked and there was a mini questioning session at the UK border.

The lack of border checks is simply that Italy, Switzerland and France are all part of the Schengen zone. The border checks are around the edges of the Schengen zone, not at individual borders within it. To introduce border checks between France and say Switzerland, France would have to suspend its participation in the Schengen Agreement which is non-trivial to do and probably would be completely pointless anyway.

best

David

David, OK perhaps I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. I travel part of that route regularly, and two to three years ago and even last January passports were glanced at, but waved through from Switzerland into France..... Now severeal months into a state of emergency it appeared the border post was deserted.

Going from France into Switzerland  over the last month there were some light Swiss border visual checks and spot checks with some border congestion as a consequence... so it appears being an associated member of Schengen, which Switzerland is, does not prevent border checks... and I don't believe Switzerland has declared a state of emergency.

Simon

i did some quick googling and it is all well explained on a BBC web page. The Schengen Agreement and the subsequent Convention were all incorporated in the Amsterdam Treaty. This does allow temporary re-introduction of internal border controls in some circumstances and several countries including France did introduce them for a period earlier this year in the wake of the terrorist attacks in Belgium. That's probably what you experienced previously.

best

David

Frank F posted:

Yes, it would be pointless, they are all over Europe already, InshMerkel and Junkers88.  The French know about the returning ISIS fighters yet they do nothing?? 

The Polish Fora (Forums) already reported that truck attacks were imminent in France and Germany, how come nobody took action in France?

FF

Frank... I find this comment to be in very bad taste.

My thoughts are with those affected in Nice and that's all I have to say.  

Eloise posted:

Frank F posted:

Yes, it would be pointless, they are all over Europe already, InshMerkel and Junkers88.  The French know about the returning ISIS fighters yet they do nothing?? 

The Polish Fora (Forums) already reported that truck attacks were imminent in France and Germany, how come nobody took action in France?

FF

Frank... I find this comment to be in very bad taste.

My thoughts are with those affected in Nice and that's all I have to say.  

Well said, Eloise.

My thoughts are, and all of our thoughts should be, unreservedly with the French people and in particular those affected by the recent atrocity.

The French President said 'we must learn to live with terrorism' - this is a very poor response.

The cause needs attention or it will keep happening.
The cause is an infectious ideology that has hijacked a faction of a medieval interpretation of a world religion.The supporters and funding of the this particular virus need to be removed.
This is not solved by holding-hands, warm words, not upsetting the wolf.
It is nothing to do with attacking more countries and creating even more spaces for these evil people to fester.
Up until now UK, France and USA have been willfully blind due to not wanting to offend certain wealthy people - that must stop.

People that think this sort of attack is OK or justified by some ideology need to be removed to somewhere they can live among those that believe the same - there are some countries that support and fund this evil medieval stuff they can life and enjoy it. Western Civilization should cease to have anything to do with these countries in terms of trade until they decide to change their ideas.

Just my opinion - fed-up with being told by weak ineffectual people holding leadership positions that all is well and move-on and a set of political stunts. The problem needs to be understood - religion can reprogram the subconscious minds of people in good and bad ways - we are talking bad here - and when reason and love have been also eliminated from the personality there will be a continual conveyor-belt of these people doing this sick stuff.

We need Leadership.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

The French President said 'we must learn to live with terrorism' - this is a very poor response.

I don't really want to turn this into a debate or a political argument ... but I think that headline phrase is taken slightly out of context!

“Terrorism is a threat that is weighing heavily on France,” Manuel Valls said.

"We’re faced with a war that terrorism has brought against us. The goal of the terrorists is to make us scared. We won’t give in to the terrorist threat, we must stand together, united. France has been once again struck in our flesh.

"Times have changed and we should learn to live with terrorism. We have to show solidarity and collective calm. France has been hit in its soul on the 14 July, our national day.

“They wanted to attack the unity of the French nation. The only dignified response is that France will remain loyal to the spirit of the 14 July and its values.”

(Oh and Manuel Valls is the French Prime Minister not the French President)

No, I'm afraid there's no palatable context for that statement.

No offense meant by me to the French people today of all days.

I think passivity and warm words from Leaders and no viable plan or strategy does not serve anyone.

It is the Padded Cell - I don't post often but the attack yesterday got my Goat and people need to begin the difficulty of thinking about all this for themselves rather than accept sound-bite platitudes.

But I'm finished and said what I wanted.

Well Said DB,

Warm words, or resignation to terrorism is not the answer.

I' m also used to go through Swiss border and it's startling how it's oftern deseted

Regards

Roberto

I'm not who should interpret French President's words, but "learning to live with terrorism" could mean many things.

I think terrorism is like a chronic disease, difficult to erradicate. Learning to live with a chronic illness means you are going to take all the measures to maintain it under control and minimize adverse effects. Establish a solid network of help and support, build an environment that protect yourself and ideally hostile for the desease, etc.

Erich

Incidentally, the man responsible for the carnage was Franco-Tunisian, and lived in Nice. He hired the lorry himself, was not known to the authorities, had no criminal record to speak of, no known association with Isis. Border checks wouldn't have stopped that happening - nor a real "state of emergency".

This is indeed something that, unfortunately, we have to live with, in a way. A couple of tanks at either end of the Promenade des Anglais would have stopped the lorry, I supppose - are we prepared for that kind of response? You always think that it's not going to happen again, that you've seen the worst of it - but it just goes on. No words seem strong enough to describe the awfulness of those events.

Frenchnaim posted:

Incidentally, the man responsible for the carnage was Franco-Tunisian, and lived in Nice. He hired the lorry himself, was not known to the authorities, had no criminal record to speak of, no known association with Isis. Border checks wouldn't have stopped that happening - nor a real "state of emergency".

This is indeed something that, unfortunately, we have to live with, in a way. A couple of tanks at either end of the Promenade des Anglais would have stopped the lorry, I supppose - are we prepared for that kind of response? You always think that it's not going to happen again, that you've seen the worst of it - but it just goes on. No words seem strong enough to describe the awfulness of those events.

I take some solace from the fact in spite if the ease with which people can commit atrocities in this manner, very, very few choose to do so. The statistical risk of us dying from a terrorist attack remains extremely small. It's no consolation to those directly affected, but we mustn't cower in fear as a result of these things.

Frank F posted:

 

All Merkel and Junkers88 have done is made it easier for terrorists to return and create more bloodshed.  I stand by my comment.

Sorry Frank but this is nonsense. None of the attacks committed in the name of ISIS on European soil have been committed by refugees who have come to Europe in recent months or years. The attacks in London back in 2005 were all committed by UK residents who were born in the UK. The attacks in Paris last year were committed by EU citizens. The chap who drove his lorry into the crowd in Nice had been living there for many years. He wasn't even a practicing muslim, let alone an islamic fanatic. Apparently he was a loner suffering from and being treated for depression. You cannot safeguard against that type of heinous act. Same as for the gun massacres committed in America by your nice and loving white neighbour. Or that white Christian right wing lunatic in Norway going on a killing spree causing the deaths of 77 people, mainly children and young adults. 

Your argument that boarders must be closed and migrants and refugees kept out to keep us all safe is an over simplistic view seeking simple answers to a set of very complex problems. If you wanted to lay blame on anyone you might like to start with your own government for supporting the invasion of Afghanistan and the Irak war. The blunt and uncomfortable truth is that without these US led and UK supported wars ISIS as we know it today would simply not exist, the terrorist threat to Europe would be minimal and the influx of refugees barely existing. Like it or not these are the facts.

Borders are there as security checkpoints and as such are prudent ... checkpoints at a national level and sensitive building/venue level seems sensible to me that has minimum impact to our freedoms.

But checkpoints themselves don't neccessarily prevent atrocities.. they can however make them more difficult to succeed... as they become our intelligence services eyes.

i believe the most effective prevention (although obviously can't be guaranteed ) is achieved through intelligence sharing. Perhaps sadly Britain through its troubled terrorist path is further ahead here.. even from the 7th July bombing severeal years ago we learnt lessons on more effective information sharing between intelligence and regional police forces.

I understand that France feel they are behind the game here and their intelligence and police organisations are very disjointed and they are looking to restructure them similar to  US or UK lines.

I understand in the UK over the last 18 months severeal terrorist/mass murder plots (no doubt of all colours and creeds) have been thwarted and neutralised through the use of our intelligence  police services sharing information.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Borders are there as security checkpoints and as such are prudent ... checkpoints at a national level and sensitive building/venue level seems sensible that has minimum impact with our freedoms.

But checkpoints themselves don't neccessarily prevent atrocities.. they can however make them more difficult to succeed.

i believe the most effective prevention is achieved through intelligence sharing. Perhaps sadly Britain through its troubled terrorist path is further ahead here.. even from the 7th July bombing severeal years ago we learnt lessons on more effective information sharing between intelligence and regional police forces.

I understand that France feel they are behind the game here and their intelligence and police organisations are very disjointed and they are looking to restructure them similar to  US or UK lines.

I understand in the UK over the last 18 months severeal terrorist/mass murder plots (no doubt of all colours and creeds) have been thwarted and neutralised through the use of our intelligence and police coordination.

 

+1

Thete is also an article on just this difference between UK and French terrorism intelligence on the Guardian website today.

best

David

Cheers David, I will go and have a read... Assuming it's free to read.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I understand in the UK over the last 18 months severeal terrorist/mass murder plots (no doubt of all colours and creeds) have been thwarted and neutralised through the use of our intelligence  police services sharing information.

Unless you've otherwise arrested a vehicle full of explosives before detonation, or the like, claiming to have thwarted a terrorist attempt seems a bit like claiming you didn't catch a cold because you took Vitamin-C. But I guess that's how intelligence works, or maintains funding.

Indeed it is, my awareness  of some of the methods open to the intelligence services is extremely limited, but through my professional life I get a few  glimpses here and there .. and practivity, information gathering, sifting, pattern / activity recognition is fascinating... and even with modern technology time consuming.

Terrorist attacks have an immediate, ghastly impact. Imagine once these guys decide to take things to a less dramatic, more sophisticated level. Poisoning a food or water supply. Disabling power production in a major city. Germ or viral terrorism?  We've yet to see it. These would have far greater economic results and guarding against terrorism at these levels could become practically and economically exhaustive. As well, these would also do more to erode citizens' confidence in their nation to protect them.

Frank F posted:

If you read carefully you will note that I was referring to the EU citizens who had gone to fight for ISIS and then returned.  The French and probably the Belgians know about them but apparently do nothing. 

FF

Ok, sorry, I misread your comments then. But can you please explain how Merkel and Junker have played a part in this? Or rather in what way are they in particular responsible for any of the bloodshed that has taken place?

TIA