Why do people dislike naim so much?

Debs has it.  

I think one aspect of  antipathy towards Naim is actually due to some of its disciples. 

Or perhaps to the fact that is has disciples in the first place. 

It seems very similar to the apple vs Windows scenario which I suppose is a big backhanded compliment to Naim, only one thing worse than being talked about...........

SJB

Here in France, Naim lovers are seen as a bit "cliquish", the way ordinary mortals who buy PCs look down on the Apple Mac crowd . Naim equipment appears as a bit too "exclusive", the kind of stuff you buy if you have more money than sense. Not my opinion of course - I'm on my third Naim amplifier in just under 40 years.

Polarbear posted:

SongStream posted:

I really like broccoli.

Sorry, not enough bass for me 

I really like bass, but not so convinced about bream.

A few of the points here I've never really thought about 

1, Price, always bought olive series and price always seemed reasonable my Naim gear cost me less than £1800.( desperately need servicing though) but I know the newer ranges are expensive but that in my mind is business everyone has to make a profit. 

2, The Windows/ Apple comparison is a very good one I've never felt that way with Naim  but have with Apple.

3, the need of separate psu I can see why people get annoyed by it but surely the benefit of keeping the initial  cost down for the consumer to afford the gear in stages so to speak is a good thing otherwise Naim would price themselves almost completely out the market for the average person like myself. 

Before I bought Naim I basically lived in hifi shops constantly auditioning until someone invited me to listen to there setup and realised that's what I've been looking for. I know Naim isn't to everyone's liking and that's not a bad thing but the hours/days and money I've saved having to listen to so many different bits of kit in my mind is brilliant although I do still occasionally go and try new kit just to see what's out there. 

Thanks for all the comments like I said I am just curious what other people thought, I don't believe Naim is necessarily superior to everything else but couldn't get my head around the negativity towards it.

also if anyone knows of any SBL's for sale let me know after 3yrs I'm finally in a position to get some. 

I read an interesting artical about Facebook's filtering algorithms - essentially, they heavily weight you seeing stuff that agrees with your own views. After a while it's easy to conclude that you must be right, because you only see opinions that you agree with. It's the same in most Internet Forums where certain opinions begin to dominate, forcing alternative views to seek alternative outlets.

A bunch of folk who found this forum too positive about Naim set up an alternative place where they can vent their views. It doesn't take long before the anti-Naim camp appear to be the dominant opinion.

The bottom line is Naim make some very decent HiFi, but so do others.... So listen, and decide.. Personally I love Naim.

Luckily not many people have heard of Naim here, so I can still leave my house unmolested

Sloop John B posted:

I think one aspect of  antipathy towards Naim is actually due to some of its disciples. 

Or perhaps to the fact that is has disciples in the first place.SJB

Indeed  in fact zealots springs to mind - certainly beyond conventional brand advocacy 

I have loved Naim for over 30 years now - but not every single thing all of the time  

Debs has it right - choice is good 

In my 36 years of Naim ownership (3 pre-amps, 3 power amps and 3 cd players) I've never known another Naim owner. In fact most have never even heard of Naim. However every single visitor to my house who has heard my system has been knocked out by the sound quality. And most of my friends are keen music fans. Can't answer the original question though. 

Don't worry. Muso is going to change the world's perception of Naim. Just you wait and see.

TomK posted:

In my 36 years of Naim ownership (3 pre-amps, 3 power amps and 3 cd players) I've never known another Naim owner. In fact most have never even heard of Naim. However every single visitor to my house who has heard my system has been knocked out by the sound quality. And most of my friends are keen music fans. Can't answer the original question though. 

I found exactly the same reaction even with my very first system 45 years ago: in hifi terms pretty basic, but it was significantly better than anything anyone I knew had. And the same has continued for over 40 years, while the system has become better. (One recent change to the norm, a friend with a system that lacked only in the speaker department now has my old IMFs - and  the differences are less marked.)

But that has nothing to do with Naim, instead I think the reality is the vast majority of people simply don't have an interest in hifi, a sub £500 'stereo' from somewhere like Argos being the pinnacle, and many content with something much lower fi than that. Against that backdrop any reasonably decent hifi can impress.

Andrew Everard posted:

Polarbear posted:

SongStream posted:

I really like broccoli.

Sorry, not enough bass for me 

I really like bass, but not so convinced about bream.

"Branzino" 

Could it be the idiosyncratic nature of the brand?...

DIN plugs, the need for Naim speaker wires (of a minimum length), the difficulty in matching it with other brands, the lengthy burn in, the powered up all the time thing, the transformer buzz/hum, the need for recapping after 10 yrs, the finicky setup specifics, the empty box power supplies that cost as much as the integrated amp, the ''in denial'' fanboys who rationalize and defend Naim gear no matter what. Naim's ''evolution'' from minimalist flat earth philosophy to megabuck multiple box systems to Bentley to the $250,000 Statement that very few can afford. Not to mention the ever increasing prices of its bread and butter components.

Yet somehow I can't convince myself to move to another brand.

I think the main reason being the specific sound signature which is different from what people regard to be a hifi sound. 

In addition to that expensive, not easy to combine, the amount of boxes...

I had already some friends who respect the sound but don't like it....

ı think it is the price and upgrade paths.....  they all see the upgrade ladder system specially power supplies as a money trap and we are the suckers  

Interesting thread. I used to hate Naim back when I worked in the trade in the 90s. Loved the sound - hated the brand. I can only give insight into a few of the gripes that were going through my head at the time.

• Styling: It shouldn't matter but it does. The Olive ranges and before were minimalist as the current range is but drew attention to themselves anyway for the wrong reason. When selling Naim gear, the common complaint that I got from customers was "It's so expensive but looks so cheap". Couldn't really argue with that. Build quality was impeccible but superficial looks matter.
• Volume control: For whatever reason, I hated analogue volume controls. I wanted consistency to know that my listening volume was 40 on teh display (for example) or 34 for material with a high recording level or 28 for TV. This whole crank the knob until it sounds right for the mood you're in right now approach just bugged the hell out of 90's me. These day's I'm the opposite.
• The power supplies: It just wasn't a sexy or fun upgrade to make for the money. Regardless of the huge difference they could make, the satidfaction of adding a power supply compaired to a new power amp or DAC or something was just not there. The Naim upgrade paths just seemed boring. And the power supplies were hard-wired for a voltage. If you came from an expat family like I did then anything that needed a factory mod just because you moved country was to be avoided as bad design. Nevermind overlooking the fact that the power supplies actually cause the product range offering to dramatically increase. Everyone thinks Naim make 6 analogue only preamps but in fact every preamp/PS pairing is a different product. I didn't see it this way though. An 82 was an 82, nevermind the fact that on its own it does nothing.
• Discrete components: SMC was the future, discrete was the past and therefore bad. The hifi of the future was going to be 80% computer like the Linn stuff. No idea how I got this into my head but it was there.
• Their speakers: were a PITA to work with. Yeah the SBL was the only Naim speaker I ever liked but never loved it. To this day, you either love Naim speakers or their dry sound can drive you nuts. This never fundamentally changed for me and after assembling SBLs a few times, the design really bothered me.
• Cables: The fact that you needed to make special orders of cables if you nwanted to upgrade because DIN was so non standard was a nightmare and you couldn't use them with anything else. Plus the wiring methodology was just so different to anything else. It seemed like complexity without any benefit.

So what changed? Well, I got older and less impatient. More into music and less into hifi. My training in my career gave me more appreciation for doing things basic and right from step one rather than compensate later down the line. Naim's new styling helped too. Half the reasons I disliked Naim were largely irrational, I suspect some of it was the cost. If hifi was a journay then I could get to Linn's top preamp (the Kairn) for a lot less than I could get to a 52 (never mind the fact that the 52 was miles better).

When working on design of a data centre room for a regional office, the first discussions were not of hardware, rack space or network cabling. They were of earthing, power supply, and room isolation in that order and far more time was spent on that than anything else and it paid off. By then, my thinking about how to tackle problems had changed forever, and what is music reproduction if not merely a problem to be solved?

Interestingling enough, the 10 year recap was not an issue. Everything actually benefits and eventually needs recapping, it is just that Naim are one of the few to actually admit it. It is far easier for manufacterures to save costs on stocking components for old models and try and get customers to rotate their equipment every 10 years than it is to do the stock up and train for recapping thing. The misconception has always been that Naim need it while others don't. In reality, others just deliberately avoid the discussion. The other thing that I liked (especially as a dealer) was that it was so much easier to match Naim with other speakers. Like every brand, they had speakers that the electronics just didn't like - but much fewer. Decent current deliver tends to have that effect.

I still think there is a big world of hifi out there and some of it is still rather good. Naim are not the only player in town to pay obsessive detail to earthing and the importance of the power supply. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I have heard some truly impressive stuff.

Having no pre-conceived or bias opinion I went through years of exploration of makes & methods to get decent quality music & finally fixed on Naim.  I liked the sound & the simple elegance of the olive units,  I went thru various multiple boxes, per/pwr/psu etc & industrial grade metal racking.   I eventually sold off all the olive gear & downsized to the current black integrated amp & sources & was more than happy,  the SQ was as good if not better & we now have simple good looking & unobtrusive & it delivers on SQ.  (OK some PSU's have crept in but are small & out of sight). 

Some things I have not liked with Naim over the years – humming traffo's (I don't accept the excuses for putting up with this), the price of PSU's,  the Naim speaker sound (too bass light – they do have bass but to me its dry & unbalanced),    NACA5 might sound good, but thats all.    Finally I don't understand why people have to like or dislike Naim,  its only a way to reproduce music.

My take is:

1) the price, naim is expensive

2) the sound signature, naim sounds very different from most other hifi brands i've heard and owned, if you're not blown away the first time you heard it, you probably won't grow a taste for naim sound

3) the setup, it is quite difficult to setup a naim system, all that prat will sound like a noisy concert if you don't have proper room treatment, but once properly set up and paired with the right speakers, a naim system will sound absolutely breathtaking. Most people would not have the opportunity to listen to a properly set up naim system

4) see (1) above

5) naim tends to not sound 'sweet', and hence may not be very comfortable to listen to on some days, depending on mood

I agree with Mike-B - it's only a way to reproduce music. If all my Naim stuff was stolen tomorrow I'd probably replace it with more Naim . . . but there are other brands out there I would happily buy instead: Bryston, Devialet, Rega, Chord and others. Obviously, Naim doesn't make the absolute best in every single product type and price point - it would be impossible and would imply that their competitors are bad at their job, which they aren't. Ultimately it's a melange of the brand sound, quality, synergy, aesthetic, heritage and just plain laziness on my part. I can't understand why anyone gets exercised by which brand of hi fi someone else chooses.

Bert Schurink posted:

I think the main reason being the specific sound signature which is different from what people regard to be a hifi sound. 

In addition to that expensive, not easy to combine, the amount of boxes...

 

I had already some friends who respect the sound but don't like it....

Bert,

I think this is a perfect example of the phenomenon to which the OP alludes. Can I play the Devil's advocate?

You state that the main reason is "the significant sound signature which is different from what people regard to be a hifi sound"

Others (probably myself included), might phrase this slightly differently as follows: "the significant sound signature which is different from the majority of other high-end hifi equipment, and also different to what people would regard to be an absolutely true reflection of reality".

Of course, 'adding' PRAT to the sound may well produce for some, or many, a more enjoyable listening experience. That in itself is absolutely fine.

I expect that the truth lies somewhere between the above two assertions.

Yes, agreed, and this was the argument back in the 80s and 90s that seems still to be dragging on. The audiophile market was dividing into the US-style 'all about the bass' group, the Linn-style 'getting as close to the pure original as possible' group . . . and something else.

Naim decided that too much bass was flabby and unmusical, but also that music reproduction was intrinsically fake, and that getting as close to the original as possible didn't actually sound brilliant in your lounge surrounded by carpets, pot plants and bookshelves. And so the notions of PRAT and 'musicality' emerged. To some it's just colouration, but that's the point . . . unless you're listening to unamplified analogue instruments in the room, it's all coloured no matter what you do. So it may as well be coloured beautifully. 

I'm sure this is a gross historical simplification, but it's what I remember from that time.

Naim amps and front ends have bought me a lot of pleasure since I bought my first amp (an olive Nait 2) in the early 90's. Ken Kessler's regular railings against the Linn/Naim 'cabal' of old might stir the pot from time to time, but it seems odd that Naim is singled out sometimes in other forums. Marching to the beat of it's own drum has always been Naim's way, and it's good job too in the most part. I'm not a fan of everything Naim has done, but what they do well,  there's no-one else to touch them.

For me there are a number of aspects to this, as there are with many successful companies.

- Some dealers are pushy and aggressive in their sales of Naim equipment... I have experienced this first hand and was rather unimpressed with the individuals and dealer concerned. Other dealers are relaxed and allow you time to make up your own mind.

- Some Naim owners (particularly on Hifi forums) get overly defensive of their systems, to the point that you get character assassinated if you dare question them.

- Some Naim equipment is overpriced IMO, but again that is my opinion, but that hasn't prevented me from buying two of their sources (NDX & CDX2) as I like the sound they produce. The reason they are able to charge the prices they do though is that people are willing to buy their equipment at that price! - it's typical marketing.

- Some people are jealous of the systems other people have, this isn't just the case with Naim equipment but I am sure it has a impact.

- Some people don't like the fact that Naim promote upgrading, particularly in relation to external power supplies, this one I don't get, why wouldn't you want to improve you system and power supplies obvious make a difference.

- Namies - the overly passionate Naim buyers... see my second point.

Maybe other punters including myself don't get the whole "musicality" thing,  thinking that if all things " hifi " are done correctly then It should sound musical if the music played was musical.

Reading hifi magazines through the years, brands like Bryston, Densen, Unison Research, and Naim amongst many others that are classed as not being truly transparent are distinct to other brands like Arcam, chord Electronics, Devialet and Krell that are classed as being more analytically accurate but less musical- although I don't have the listening experience to say that I'd agree or really understand the point .  For a hifi brand to clearly market itself as a "musicality" product like what Naim do can be severely off putting and undermining the agency of ones ability to enjoy listening.

 There is also the differences of perspective. Do you want a presentation of listening to an orchestra from several rows back or do you want to be standing next to the conductor ?  It seems that many detractors of the Naim sound say that it is like standing with the conductor and less musical - so go figure.

Solid Air posted:

Yes, agreed, and this was the argument back in the 80s and 90s that seems still to be dragging on. The audiophile market was dividing into the US-style 'all about the bass' group, the Linn-style 'getting as close to the pure original as possible' group . . . and something else.

Naim decided that too much bass was flabby and unmusical, but also that music reproduction was intrinsically fake, and that getting as close to the original as possible didn't actually sound brilliant in your lounge surrounded by carpets, pot plants and bookshelves. And so the notions of PRAT and 'musicality' emerged. To some it's just colouration, but that's the point . . . unless you're listening to unamplified analogue instruments in the room, it's all coloured no matter what you do. So it may as well be coloured beautifully. 

I'm sure this is a gross historical simplification, but it's what I remember from that time.

 

Tight, visceral bass is good. The kind you generally get with high damping factor amps, but there can be a trade off in the timing department.

If the bass is soft and round you're better off with less of it. Yes musical reproduction is fake but if there's one thing I want to be well reproduced it's the bass and kick drum's snap of a live performance. That's what moves me.

Naim does electronic music really well. That's because, coloration/no coloration, we don't really know how it's supposed to sound. However violins, piano, etc could sound more natural.

In any case there will always be compromises. I live in a flat so I like the small form factor and zero heat of Naim amps. Class A and tube amps are not for me. Don't like the cheap look of most mass produced Japanese gear. Other brands may offer different/better sound but will sacrifice on features (Heed, Rega, Sonneteer, LFD) or others may match in features but lack the Naim musicality (Moon, Hegel).

But there are other games in town and if Naim get too big for their britches and stop paying attention to their customers I won't hesitate to spend elsewhere. They should remember where they came from and focus on quality and VFM instead of quantity of new products.