Why do people dislike naim so much?

feeling_zen posted:

Interesting thread. I used to hate Naim back when I worked in the trade in the 90s. Loved the sound - hated the brand. I can only give insight into a few of the gripes that were going through my head at the time.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it would of been to get twitching and gurning monied ravers to put down big sums on green hifi and wobbly turntables

TOBYJUG posted:

feeling_zen posted:

Interesting thread. I used to hate Naim back when I worked in the trade in the 90s. Loved the sound - hated the brand. I can only give insight into a few of the gripes that were going through my head at the time.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it would of been to get twitching and gurning monied ravers to put down big sums on green hifi and wobbly turntables

Selling a 92/90/CD3 was never a huge issue but beyond that it was a struggle. Anything higher invariably sold to existing Naim customers moving up the ladder. I'm sure they existed but I never saw anyone defect to Naim at anything higher.

Conversely, Linn was an easy sell back then. Excellent WAF. Seemed future facing instead of the past. Unlike Naim it was easy to explain (no expternal PSUs or DIN plugs). If someone looked like they might drop a few grand to defect from Audiolab or Cyrus, you didn't need to rewire their brain first. Those were the darkest days of vinyl though. 

Solid Air posted:

Yes, agreed, and this was the argument back in the 80s and 90s that seems still to be dragging on. The audiophile market was dividing into the US-style 'all about the bass' group, the Linn-style 'getting as close to the pure original as possible' group . . . and something else.

Naim decided that too much bass was flabby and unmusical, but also that music reproduction was intrinsically fake, and that getting as close to the original as possible didn't actually sound brilliant in your lounge surrounded by carpets, pot plants and bookshelves. And so the notions of PRAT and 'musicality' emerged. To some it's just colouration, but that's the point . . . unless you're listening to unamplified analogue instruments in the room, it's all coloured no matter what you do. So it may as well be coloured beautifully. 

I'm sure this is a gross historical simplification, but it's what I remember from that time.

 

I have no problem with this approach or viewpoint at all. I guess we just (potentially) have a slightly different way of describing or appreciating forms of colouration. 

Iconoclast posted:

Could it be the idiosyncratic nature of the brand?...

DIN plugs, the need for Naim speaker wires (of a minimum length), the difficulty in matching it with other brands, the lengthy burn in, the powered up all the time thing, the transformer buzz/hum, the need for recapping after 10 yrs, the finicky setup specifics, the empty box power supplies that cost as much as the integrated amp, the ''in denial'' fanboys who rationalize and defend Naim gear no matter what. Naim's ''evolution'' from minimalist flat earth philosophy to megabuck multiple box systems to Bentley to the $250,000 Statement that very few can afford. Not to mention the ever increasing prices of its bread and butter components.

Yet somehow I can't convince myself to move to another brand.

 

Paranoia of Naim's disciples. if I were forced to follow these idiosyncratic rules probably I would hate Naim. But I love Naim even if my cable is not Naim but TQB 2.5m (not 3,5), mine is not power up all the time but just when I want to listen to it (30 minutes burn in and it sounds wonderful) my SU no buz/hum, no need recapping after 10 yrs (because it is not power up all the time)

Regards

probably because Naim owners tend to be tall handsome and well endowed.  Highly intelligent, sophisticated and stylish.  I am at least.

Recapping every 10 years? Does this mean that Naim gear is built to last? Perish the thought!

staffy posted:

probably because Naim owners tend to be tall handsome and well endowed.  Highly intelligent, sophisticated and stylish.  I am at least.

Don't forget: modest

I spend too much time listening to my Naim system (or rather too much time listening to music from my Naim) - I hate Naim!
A friend of mine who is a musician, one day he came round to my house during my listening session, and after listening to a few tracks, he made a strange comment - Wow! this is not a hifi system because I can hear real music

Anto68 posted:

Iconoclast posted:

Could it be the idiosyncratic nature of the brand?...

DIN plugs, the need for Naim speaker wires (of a minimum length), the difficulty in matching it with other brands, the lengthy burn in, the powered up all the time thing, the transformer buzz/hum, the need for recapping after 10 yrs, the finicky setup specifics, the empty box power supplies that cost as much as the integrated amp, the ''in denial'' fanboys who rationalize and defend Naim gear no matter what. Naim's ''evolution'' from minimalist flat earth philosophy to megabuck multiple box systems to Bentley to the $250,000 Statement that very few can afford. Not to mention the ever increasing prices of its bread and butter components.

Yet somehow I can't convince myself to move to another brand.

 

Paranoia of Naim's disciples. if I were forced to follow these idiosyncratic rules probably I would hate Naim. But I love Naim even if my cable is not Naim but TQB 2.5m (not 3,5), mine is not power up all the time but just when I want to listen to it (30 minutes burn in and it sounds wonderful) my SU no buz/hum, no need recapping after 10 yrs (because it is not power up all the time)

Regards

 

Don't worry, it will need recapping just as soon, whether you leave it on or turn it off. 

Peter Dinh posted:

I spend too much time listening to my Naim system (or rather too much time listening to music from my Naim) - I hate Naim!
A friend of mine who is a musician, one day he came round to my house during my listening session, and after listening to a few tracks, he made a strange comment - Wow! this is not a hifi system because I can hear real music

That's a lovely compliment. A good system should, in my view, be invisible, leaving only the music. 

I asked my dealer the same question. He said it quite simple: here in Germany, naim is no longer competitive. it is not possible for him to earn money with naim and he doesn't stock naim any more. Sad news for me.

These things are definately regional/cultural as much as we may like to pretend they are not. Naim aside for a moment, I see whole groups of hi-fi brands pushed aside in different countries for different reasons. In the far east where the market is characterised by poor demonstration facilities (or near non existant), the market sees extremely high sales volumes as custmers constantly buy, experiment, and sell componnts and try to do all the matching based purely on detailed technical specs of every capacitor, chip, tranistor in the box. Queue any brand that takes a holistic approach; doesn't publish the details about every nut and bolt used; uses any component that is less than perfect on paper etc. and its reputation will be dragged through the mill very quickly.

Historical reviews before Naim pulled out of Japan indicate a lot of derision over the capacitors being of inferior quality and durability to Japanese made ones that last for (allegedly) 50 years or some such nonsense and some other views on the poor quality toroids blah blah blah. I think depending on the characteristics of the local market and preferences/fads you are going to see detractors of various brands, of which Naim is only one, radically swing up and down.

I often get asked "what is so good about my Naim? What specific components justify its cost and prove its performance?" Sounds retarded but if you look at it from the point of view of someone who cannot listen to anything properly before they buy it, the only proof is what can be written on paper.

I just have to sigh and imagine a big drink in my hand and resist the urge not to use the NAP250 as a weapon.

Indeed. In the Seattle area a couple of the half dozen Naim dealers now stock only the Muso, possibly a remnant Nait XS or Uniti. Mind you they are more than happy to order in the bigger stuff provided you're willing to buy it outright. And who knows of direct dealer support on set-up after the fact for those units from those dealers. They seem to be moving on to the brands that sell more in droves, and why shouldn't they?

christoph posted:

I asked my dealer the same question. He said it quite simple: here in Germany, naim is no longer competitive. it is not possible for him to earn money with naim and he doesn't stock naim any more. Sad news for me.

Without sounding too condescending, I think this is just a convenient excuse...

After all - I choose to buy and drive BMW, not because it's competitively priced and allows my dealer to make money. I choose to use BMW purely because I love driving them, I like how they are put together.
If I was to justify buying a BMW purely on price, it would loose out every time. After all a basic model, just about manages to have an engine and five wheels (including a steering wheel). Everything else seems to be optional - a bit of an upgrade path if you like. By the time it has everything I need, the purchase price makes me cringe. But I still choose to buy one (now on my 3rd one). It's a bit like buying a 555PSD - stupidly expensive, but wonderful

So back to Naim - sales in Poland were very slow, until a new distributor took over several years ago. Apparently it's now one of the fastest growing markets for Naim.

Hi

I love my Naim kit. Often the people who make these arguments don't understand what they are talking about. I was once publicly berated by someone who wore a $10 digital casio watch and I was wearing a mid range Swiss Automatic watch that cost considerably more. No amount of arguing would convince the gentleman that what I was paying for was some serious designing and engineering in terms of a mechanical automatic watch that had 600 parts that worked in perfect harmony. 

I have come to the conclusion that there is no point in having some of these arguments. Each to their own.

newbie posted:

Hi...

I have come to the conclusion that there is no point in having some of these arguments. Each to their own.

+1.  Life's too short to waste any heartbeats arguing over which brand is best.  

Nothing wrong with voicing an opinion, or listening to others, but in the end it is our money, and our purchase decision. Once made, it is pretty much irrelevant what others think.

ATB.

Hook

Hungryhalibut posted:

Anto68 posted:

Iconoclast posted:

Could it be the idiosyncratic nature of the brand?...

DIN plugs, the need for Naim speaker wires (of a minimum length), the difficulty in matching it with other brands, the lengthy burn in, the powered up all the time thing, the transformer buzz/hum, the need for recapping after 10 yrs, the finicky setup specifics, the empty box power supplies that cost as much as the integrated amp, the ''in denial'' fanboys who rationalize and defend Naim gear no matter what. Naim's ''evolution'' from minimalist flat earth philosophy to megabuck multiple box systems to Bentley to the $250,000 Statement that very few can afford. Not to mention the ever increasing prices of its bread and butter components.

Yet somehow I can't convince myself to move to another brand.

 

Paranoia of Naim's disciples. if I were forced to follow these idiosyncratic rules probably I would hate Naim. But I love Naim even if my cable is not Naim but TQB 2.5m (not 3,5), mine is not power up all the time but just when I want to listen to it (30 minutes burn in and it sounds wonderful) my SU no buz/hum, no need recapping after 10 yrs (because it is not power up all the time)

Regards

 

Don't worry, it will need recapping just as soon, whether you leave it on or turn it off. 

Well, if what you say is true I will have a good reason to be part of those people who dislike Naim, It costs a lot of money to get problem so easily. I had a Linn  kit for 12 yrs and it worked perfectly until the day that I replaced with an SU and who knows how many more years will work with the new owner.

By the way in these hot days of July (I do not know in England but here in Italy we get 35° sometimes) if I leave on the SU all the time I will be able to roasting a "bistecca alla fiorentina" (Tuscan steak ) on the top of the chassis. The display sign 48° after only one hour burn in, it seem like a amplifier in class A. What is the optimum operating temperature for a perfect work declared by Naim? 

christoph posted:

I asked my dealer the same question. He said it quite simple: here in Germany, naim is no longer competitive. it is not possible for him to earn money with naim and he doesn't stock naim any more. Sad news for me.

In Germany there are a lot of competitor, Audionet for example, I listened the Sam DNA 2.0, wonderful "Uniti" made in germany, it cost less than a 272/xps/250

I don't know if anyone has commented this ... but I have seen negatives spoken about the fact that (right or wrongly) Naim is perceived to generally work best in a "one make" system.  That is generally if you have a Naim source, you also have Naim pre and power amps.  And very rarely do you match a Naim power amp with anything other than a Naim pre (and vice versa).

Agree on the "one make" system point. It does not seems to or shown in practice nor by design (due to DIN connection)  to be "compatible" (sound wise) to other makes. This "all or none" ideal is a rather high entry barrier to many.

It is also rather expensive for what it offers in sound relative to many industry peers.

Options for power supply upgrades also seems confusing.

Anto68 posted:

Hungryhalibut posted

Well, if what you say is true I will have a good reason to be part of those people who dislike Naim, It costs a lot of money to get problem so easily. I had a Linn  kit for 12 yrs and it worked perfectly until the day that I replaced with an SU and who knows how many more years will work with the new owner.

By the way in these hot days of July (I do not know in England but here in Italy we get 35° sometimes) if I leave on the SU all the time I will be able to roasting a "bistecca alla fiorentina" (Tuscan steak ) on the top of the chassis. The display sign 48° after only one hour burn in, it seem like a amplifier in class A. What is the optimum operating temperature for a perfect work declared by Naim? 

When I sent my 20 year old-ish Musical Fidelity P270 off for servicing a year or two ago, the manufacturer didnt replace the big reservoir caps, saying they tested within spec, saving me money for the time being. That is despite the amp running too hot to more than brush against its huge heatsinks (partial class-A amp)

Anto68 posted:

christoph posted:

I asked my dealer the same question. He said it quite simple: here in Germany, naim is no longer competitive. it is not possible for him to earn money with naim and he doesn't stock naim any more. Sad news for me.

In Germany there are a lot of competitor, Audionet for example, I listened the Sam DNA 2.0, wonderful "Uniti" made in germany, it cost less than a 272/xps/250

And how does it compare sonically, with a good source and speakers?

I'm worried about it,  I wonder why Naim has no heatsinks on the chassis 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Anto68 posted:

christoph posted:

I asked my dealer the same question. He said it quite simple: here in Germany, naim is no longer competitive. it is not possible for him to earn money with naim and he doesn't stock naim any more. Sad news for me.

In Germany there are a lot of competitor, Audionet for example, I listened the Sam DNA 2.0, wonderful "Uniti" made in germany, it cost less than a 272/xps/250

And how does it compare sonically, with a good source and speakers?

believe me, it has a stellar sound, clean and balanced, listened with enormous focal utopia, I had a listening session last april at Milano hi end show

very negatve and self-deprecating topic to start. could have equally been called why do people like naim so much?

personally, i like naim very much and think they make world class products. i recently listened to a nac n272 streamer/dac/preamp and thought it was fantastic. ive read it can be even better with an upgraded xps power supply. now that is where i get flustrated as i think to myself if i bought it then im not getting 100% out of it without spending a whole lot more money. not only that if i upgraded power supply to xps then i'd be left with a redundant power supply in the n272 that i paid for! i find it remarkable also that asynchronous usb could be missing from n272. naim can be rather eccentric but i dont hate them for it.