Servers - a complicated matter

Jonas - and the point is? 

Not another sodding Melco thread, please. 

Personally, I find Asset on a Qnap to be rock solid. But of course, as it only costs £500, it can't be any good, can it?

my QNAP was £200 + drives - maxed it out at £350. So it must be even worse

Hungryhalibut posted:

Not another sodding Melco thread, please. 

Personally, I find Asset on a Qnap to be rock solid. But of course, as it only costs £500, it can't be any good, can it?

Not sure that there s yet been mention of Melco - but what exactly is wrong if it did make an entry here, albeit that it may cost more than some alternatives? Anyway, though I will mention the Melco, I am not recommending it!

My experience with Mac Mini, running Serviio UPnP server, is that it worked fine as a NAS to a Naim streamer. But it is even better using Audirvana rendering software on the MM with dedicated usb output through Gustard U12 isolator to the DAC  - though I don't know if  just because the renderer is better, or if it is because there is no network involved, the music store being in the same machine (network only needed for backup convenience or downloading), avoiding completely all the network related hassles people are struggling with on other threads. Melco is something similar, and my experience with a quick comparison (Melco N1A) found no immediately apparent sound quality difference, that evaluation using a Chord Dave DAC (and in that setup omitting the Gustard from the MM/Audirvana comparison as Dave's input has all the isolation needed).

I'd recommend Vortex box.  Has been rock solid for years for me.  Rarely rebooted.  Rips CDs.  

Just works (at least for me).

Asset running on a QNAP nas box is totally boring.  It just works 100% of the time, requires no attention.  Transcodes flac to wav, gapless.  Provides views by artist, album name, genre, date, etc etc.  

I must be doing something wrong.

I use daphiile music server running as a virtual on windows 2012 running on a dell 2900 server with 32gigs of ram and twin quad core zeons.

I have set the 8 drives up in 4 sets of striped, (0) so its super fast, this all backs up to an proliant server via cobian back up (great, free pc back up software)

Not overlay complicated to set up, I only got into virtuals this year but will never go back now. If I select an album to play on the uniti music starts half a second after hitting play, gapless and to date not so much as a hicup out of place.

In my experience the best servers are powerful servers. Their downside is electric use and noise. Mine lives in a garage so noise is not an issue. I help the environment by trying not to fart too often.

garyi posted:

I use daphiile music server running as a virtual on windows 2012 running on a dell 2900 server with 32gigs of ram and twin quad core zeons.

I have set the 8 drives up in 4 sets of striped, (0) so its super fast, this all backs up to an proliant server via cobian back up (great, free pc back up software)

Not overlay complicated to set up, I only got into virtuals this year but will never go back now. If I select an album to play on the uniti music starts half a second after hitting play, gapless and to date not so much as a hicup out of place.

In my experience the best servers are powerful servers. Their downside is electric use and noise. Mine lives in a garage so noise is not an issue. I help the environment by trying not to fart too often.

 

I suspect most people would regard that as complicated, and overkill for a music server! It sounds more like an industrial/pro office type of system that is doubling as a music server (?).

And I don't think fast play start time places great demands on a NAS, though it may benefit from the NAS being dedicated to music.

As an aside, can I ask what the issue is with 'gapless play'? With the systems I've used, music that is meant to run together, e.g an albul with no gaps between tracks, always has - does that mean it is not the case with all music store/renderer combinations? (My experience has been ND5XS by wired network from NSA 325 NAS running Twonky, then running Logitech Media Server (changed because Twonky often took ages for the streamer to find it after switch on or rebooting), then changed NSA to Mac Mini running Serviio, then changed from ND5XS to Audirvana renderer on the MM itself).

Well you say its overkill but in what way? I picked up the server delivered for 120 quid with 16 gigs of ram and twin quad core chips, its not overkill in terms of price.

However year, I do have 5 virtual servers running and use it for all sorts of things.

garyi posted:

Well you say its overkill but in what way? I picked up the server delivered for 120 quid with 16 gigs of ram and twin quad core chips, its not overkill in terms of price.

 

However year, I do have 5 virtual servers running and use it for all sorts of things.

I get the feeling, garyi, that most folks reading this wouldn't have a clue what you're describing (other than 'a server'), and so it will be labelled an 'overkill', meaning the level of perceived complication in the configuration is excessive... an overkill, in fact. 

Nonetheless, for 120 smakeroos, I have to congratulate you on what you've put together;  worth filing in the 'possible server configs' folder on my own PC.   

Overkill in my view as it it is a full size computer, with setup in the way you have it that requires some computer know-how, as likely will be required for  future maintenance, terms like 'virtual server' that I suspect also mean little to audiophiles other than those who are computer savvy, and overall it seems unnecessarily complex for a music server. Price may have been cheap secondhand, but presumably did not include the 8 drives, unless they were also secondhand, placing a significant questionmark over longevity? You did refer to its power comsumption - a less costly to run server that is simpler overall,  smaller, and easier to set up, can  be every bit as suitable for music replay, easy to use and maintain, with no lesser music replay performance, nor any lesser reliability.

Of course there is nothing wrong with such a server for a computer-savvy person not minding the bulk, noise, heat and electricity consumption, and clearly such things can be picked up for a relative bargain upfront.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Personally, I find Asset on a Qnap to be rock solid. But of course, as it only costs £500, it can't be any good, can it?

Same here. I don't understand the OP. Running a configuration like this is on the one hand foolproof, and on the other, infinitely configurable if that is your wont. Listening to really high quality material on a high quality source has never been less hassle for me.

Honestly the server part can be the easiest.  Several readily available commercial server (Qnap, Synology, ReadyNas) and a few affordable botique servers available (vortexbox comes to mind).  

I have played with several over the last few months and currently am using the ReadyNas built in MiniDlna for music and it just works and sounds good.  

I have an Assetnas, which is a preconfigured Windows Server set up with Asset already configured.  I have had it for two years and it has never put a foot wrong.  It just sits upstairs and streams stuff all over the house and is much more versatile than a standard nas (I bought it to replace a NAS that was unreliable when serving music).  I no longer stream music but my son does and he can do so whilst I'm streaming HD films across the network.  Its brill and, compared to some options, good value for money and fool proof to set up and use

I suppose eventually any technology system will require repairs/renewal - but the thought crosses my mind - getting older - how long will one be able/willing to lug an LP12 to the shop - leave it there to get it serviced & a new cartridge fitted at £££s ............. then collect it etc.

By comparison - easy to order new hard drive etc. get it delivered and plug it in ?

Can't remember how many times I loaded my LP12 into the car for servicing upgrades etc yet I only move my Synology NAS when cleaning  the rack so much easier give you a lot more time to listen to music.

The point, maybe not very well done, is that servers, when they work aren't very problematic . But the failure rate of some servers are to high. Service for a server is another matter. Just look around and you see almost none audio company producing their own servers. 

Why not, should be a nice income but obviously it isn't. Well, not sure, except HDX, there is one on the market today built by a traditional Hifi company. 

Since different servers sounds very different is like the Hifi companies did produce the cartridge and tone arm but the record player. 

//Jonas

Jonas I think that you are confounding reports regarding repairs needed for Naim servers, and "servers" in general.

A QNAP or Synology nas -- we don't read here much about failures, technical problems generally, etc etc.  Asset, MinimServer . . . shareware software seemingly written and supported by essentially one person in each case.  

The question to ME is whether hi fi companies think it's a business they want or need to be in as of 2016.  My guess is that the answer is, "not really."

Servers are essentially software. It's the hardware they run on that potentially needs maintenance and repair. Just like amps need servicing, power supplies should be recapped, fused blow and CD players may suffer mechanism failure.  The beauty of something like a NAS running a server is that such jobs can be done at home by many owners. And many more owners with a bit of advice or technical support. Happy days.

garyi posted:

I use daphiile music server running as a virtual on windows 2012 running on a dell 2900 server with 32gigs of ram and twin quad core zeons.

I have set the 8 drives up in 4 sets of striped, (0) so its super fast, this all backs up to an proliant server via cobian back up (great, free pc back up software)

Not overlay complicated to set up, I only got into virtuals this year but will never go back now. If I select an album to play on the uniti music starts half a second after hitting play, gapless and to date not so much as a hicup out of place.

In my experience the best servers are powerful servers. Their downside is electric use and noise. Mine lives in a garage so noise is not an issue. I help the environment by trying not to fart too often.

 

I think most people would find that complicated.  A large pot will suffice to hold a small volume of liquid, but it's not the most efficient way of doing it.

Compared to a NAS, then for audio use, your server is a bit like using a 100l high pressure PTFE lined fermentation tank to hold 1/2pt of beer!

(But you may well have other applications that justify just such a server.)

P.S. how do you protect against Ransomware Viruses?

I suppose the concept of the Network player was that all the nasty computery stuff shouldn't matter that much and could be located at the other end of the network well away from the Hi-Fi kit. You should be able to plug it into your network, change configs to suit and off you go - it's all just 1's and 0's isn't it  ....

Unfortunately as with all things in the Hi-Fi world, things are slightly more complicated and networks, cables, media servers and rippers all do matter (to a greater or lesser extent - your mileage may vary). 

With regards servers, Bart summarises it nicely - 

The question to ME is whether hi fi companies think it's a business they want or need to be in as of 2016.  My guess is that the answer is, "not really."

Given that servers are simply repositories for files which have grown and evolved for decades now, it is very difficult to see how music hardware companies could possibly imagine that they could compete sensibly in that market place. The access and index methods have also been around for decades as has the file transfer protocols. Until this information hits a DAC and beyond there is only a pile of hurt and cost to be obtained by dabbling in that pool. Sadly, the ever lengthening number of issues relating to proprietary Naim server hardware simply highlights the complexity and danger. 

Those of you front ending your Naim kit with a Qnap or Synology NAS are simply freeing up cash for better sounding kit further up the line. Even these have a finite lifecycle as far as music is concerned, as the streaming services such as Tidal become more and more accessible with better than CD formats.

Possibly - but at least I own the music on my own servers

Adam Zielinski posted:

Possibly - but at least I own the music on my own servers

And when I want to 'geek out' and own various versions . . . the Steven Wilson remaster vs. the original version etc etc . . . I can, and I can know exactly what I have.  I did not warm up to the Tidal model.  WIll try again in the future.

Bart posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Possibly - but at least I own the music on my own servers

And when I want to 'geek out' and own various versions . . . the Steven Wilson remaster vs. the original version etc etc . . . I can, and I can know exactly what I have.  I did not warm up to the Tidal model.  WIll try again in the future.

Actually, so do I. I was listening to the difference between WAV files, versus MP4a on the NAS, versus Spotify, versus iTunes on my own system. These were The Beatles remastered 2009. Spotify won on that occasion.  Don't have Tidal or Qobuz.