NAC 272 vs NAC 282 : What Is Naim's Stand With Respect To Sound Quality?

I just found photos showing the internals of the NAC 272 and NAC 282. It appears that the internals of the 272 are filled to the brim, when compared to the 282.

Does anybody know why there are many components or parts in the NAC 272 that are missing in the NAC 282? There is a transformer on the right side of the 272 but none on the 282?

The NAC 272 :-

The NAC 282 (looking a bit bare compared to the 272) :-

ryder. posted:

I just found photos showing the internals of the NAC 272 and NAC 282. It appears that the internals of the 272 is filled to the brim, when compared to the 282.

Does anybody know why there are many components or parts in the NAC 272 that are missing in the NAC 282? There is a transformer on the right side of the 272 but none on the 282?

The NAC 272 :-

The NAC 282 (looks a bit bare compared to the 272) :-

Wow!!

"A picture is worth a thousand words" is an English idiom. It refers to the notion that a complex idea can be conveyed with just a single still image or that an image of a subject conveys its meaning or essence more effectively than a description does."

Allante93!

Indeed which is why typically the classic NACs are perceived by some (many?) to sound better. Less is more... and if you read the read the blurb going back the ground planing on the PCBs and component spacing has been carefully chosen to achieve optimum SQ.

with the NDS, the flagship Naim streamer, much effort has gone into seperation and decoupling because of the issues of system crosstalk and there is definitely no additional room for a NAC in that. In my opinion the component density and lack of seperation / decoupling is one of the key factors that limits the NDX.

In HQ audio less components usually leads to better SQ...

In this case a picture tells one very little. It's obvious why the 272 has more stuff inside - it includes a power supply and a streamer. 

All I will say on the comparison is that I have listened to my 272/XPS/250DR and Trickydickie's NDX/282/HCDR/250DR and couldn't tell any difference between the systems in terms of musical engagement and enjoyment. Of course, the two systems use different speakers and are in different houses, but I certainly couldn't say that one was better than the other. I'll leave Richard to comment if he wishes. 

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

Yes Simon, that is indeed comprehensible. But looking at the amount of stuff in the NAC 272, I suppose the sum of the parts in the 272 might just cost more than the ones in the NAC 282. I might be wrong though.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

It may not matter, but is there an explanation to my questions?

Hungryhalibut posted:

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

Indeed. There seems to be a subculture here intent on ad nauseumally discussing comparisons of amps/pres A verus B, possibly to justify their own purchases, possibly for the sake of repeatedly posting their opinions. Said gear plugged into the system and playing in the room should be worth far more than any picture or thousand words.

Naim don't need to justify their box internals, prices or SQ. It's an open market with plenty of contenders.

Hi Ryder, well as HH says, Naim have done a great job with the 272 in packing so much in to provide a streamer and NAC. What is different are the internals of the 172 and 272, now that is quite marked.

Simon

I would think it has something to do with streaming duties and the transformer is not needed on  282 as it is powered externally. There is certainly a lot more going on inside a 272 but IMO the 272 is a compromise because seperates must sound better more boxes and more expensive but NDX/282 has to sound better than a 272.

joerand posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

Indeed. There seems to be a subculture here intent on ad nauseumally discussing comparisons of amps/pres A verus B, possibly to justify their own purchases, possibly for the sake of repeatedly posting their opinions. Said gear plugged into the system and playing in the room should be worth far more than any picture or thousand words.

Naim don't need to justify their box internals, prices or SQ. It's an open market with plenty of contenders.

I totally agree, it's almost as some people might not trust their own ears.. and need to follow the perceived group mentality. I am not saying that applies to the OP here.. but this sort of obsessive ranking does appear quite a lot.

Perhaps Naim are partly to blame for this with thier culture of 'upgrades'.

Simon

ryder. posted:

But looking at the amount of stuff in the NAC 272, I suppose the sum of the parts in the 272 might just cost more than the ones in the NAC 282. I might be wrong though.

Have a look inside a Naim FCXS or Harbeth SuperHL5 plus and you might feel a little cheated for internals. They sell for their output.

Surely another difficulty in responding to the OP is that the 272 and 282 have to work in conjunction with a power amp. Many posters here have remarked upon the apparent synergy between a 272 and a 250 dr. I have seen less comments in that regard to a 282. One could of course take that further and include source and speakers, but ultimately it will always be a matter of personal taste. Having said that, I would agree that it is an open and competitive market and the market, to some extent, will dictate relative price. Perhaps, on that basis, the less is more idiom applies to the pricing structure as well,but I have not heard a 282 much before so make no final judgment on that

joerand posted:

ryder. posted:

But looking at the amount of stuff in the NAC 272, I suppose the sum of the parts in the 272 might just cost more than the ones in the NAC 282. I might be wrong though.

Have a look inside a Naim FCXS or Harbeth SuperHL5 plus and you might feel a little cheated for internals. They sell for their output.

In the case of the Harbeth, the components in the speakers are quite similar across the models. The additional cost when going up the models is largely due to the size of the cabinet. The speakers are more expensive when going up the models ie. P3ESR > C7ES3, > SHL5 > 40.2. In the case of the Super HL5 vs HL5+, the upcharge is due to the improvements in the crossover and other areas. Sound quality-wise between the different models in the Harbeth range is subjective. However, there is a "reasoning" to the additional cost between the different models WITHIN the Harbeth line. Others might feel cheated when looking at the Harbeth vs. speakers from other manufacturers but I don't feel at all cheated since it is not a like-for-like comparison when comparing different speakers ie. Harbeth vs non-Harbeth.

Now, back to the Naim. the bare looking Flatcap XS and the parts inside it may explain the lower price of the unit when compared to say the HIcap DR or Supercap DR. But between the 272 and 282, this does not seem to be the case when the 272 looked quite substantial when compared to the 282. I am seeking some explanation on both the hierarchy and factors that influence the pricing of both the 272 and 282. Of course, if Naim is unable to provide the answers, that does not matter.

You may regard my post as ad nauseum, but this does not necessarily preclude a possible explanation from Naim on this matter. The questions I raise may not apply to most people, but they do pique my curiosity.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

joerand posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

Indeed. There seems to be a subculture here intent on ad nauseumally discussing comparisons of amps/pres A verus B, possibly to justify their own purchases, possibly for the sake of repeatedly posting their opinions. Said gear plugged into the system and playing in the room should be worth far more than any picture or thousand words.

Naim don't need to justify their box internals, prices or SQ. It's an open market with plenty of contenders.

I totally agree, it's almost as some people might not trust their own ears.. and need to follow the perceived group mentality. I am not saying that applies to the OP here.. but this sort of obsessive ranking does appear quite a lot.

Perhaps Naim are partly to blame for this with thier culture of 'upgrades'.

Simon

 

I have to say I agree  whole heartedly with joerand there does seem to be a core of forum members who repeatedly again and again and again and again come out with the same old tired comparisons the same old rhetoric and yes self justification has to be a big part of it and also whatever the online equivalent of liking the sound of your own voice is some people seem to spend more time talking about their systems than listening to them.  

Up here for thinking (points to head).

Down here for dancing (points to feet).

C.

Guys, why the animosity?

YOU may be bored with these questions but the OP has a right to ask an open forum.

Show some respect.

ryder. posted:

Some thought both sounded fairly similar, some thought the 282 sounded better, some felt the 272 sounded better.

As we all know, the term *better* is rather vague and may not be all that useful as the difference in sound quality can be seen as a preference of the person who favours a particular sound presentation. Having said that, if in accordance with Naim's hierarchy, where does the 272 stand next to the 282 (solely in sound quality and not streaming features).

 

I think this pretty much covers it. Naim are very good at price differentiation. They've been doing it for a long time. You get what you pay for. The 282 is not peerless at its price point and one would expect it to be comfortably in front ob a 272. The rest is down to personal perception and taste. There are so many variables in people, systems and rooms that you can't draw a line or call something black or white. In your opinion, whatever sounds best to you or represents the best VFM for you is the best for your wants/needs.

Bob the Builder posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

joerand posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

Indeed. There seems to be a subculture here intent on ad nauseumally discussing comparisons of amps/pres A verus B, possibly to justify their own purchases, possibly for the sake of repeatedly posting their opinions. Said gear plugged into the system and playing in the room should be worth far more than any picture or thousand words.

Naim don't need to justify their box internals, prices or SQ. It's an open market with plenty of contenders.

I totally agree, it's almost as some people might not trust their own ears.. and need to follow the perceived group mentality. I am not saying that applies to the OP here.. but this sort of obsessive ranking does appear quite a lot.

Perhaps Naim are partly to blame for this with thier culture of 'upgrades'.

Simon

 

I have to say I agree  whole heartedly with joerand there does seem to be a core of forum members who repeatedly again and again and again and again come out with the same old tired comparisons the same old rhetoric and yes self justification has to be a big part of it and also whatever the online equivalent of liking the sound of your own voice is some people seem to spend more time talking about their systems than listening to them.  

+1

For once it's not who I thought. I think he's on holiday in San Francisco hence the relative silence.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

Except that, for at least some people, especially outside Britain though it also applies to some places here, auditioning at all can be very difficult or even impossible, let alone having the chance to do comparative auditioning. And for those lucky enough to have an accessible dealer with appropriate units and facilities, many people prefer to go in with clear ideas of what they want to hear, especially if they've had experience of dealers trying to 'lead' them to something more profitable for the dealer.

I've no idea if any of these considerations apply to the OP, who clearly is confused over which is, or is supposed to be, the superior piece of kit in terms of sound quality, given varied comments on these forums. That very variation, of course, may suggest that there is little difference in terms of sound quality, or that the difference is more a matter of personal preference of the different nuances each may bring to the sound.

intothevoid posted:

Guys, why the animosity?

YOU may be bored with these questions but the OP has a right to ask an open forum.

Show some respect.

+2

Allante93!

I think that the answer is simple. The hierarchy in performance is supposed to match the hierarchy in price. No one would expect a customer to pay more for something which sounds worse.

However in this case you are not comparing like with like as the 272 is a streamer with a preamp.

ryder. posted:

As we all know, the term *better* is rather vague and may not be all that useful as the difference in sound quality can be seen as a preference of the person who favours a particular sound presentation. Having said that, if in accordance with Naim's hierarchy, where does the 272 stand next to the 282 (solely in sound quality and not streaming features).

Any sort of input (ideally from Naim) would be most appreciated .

Naim's stance would be the same as it always is. Find a good dealer, and they will help you make your own decision, which is the only one that matters.

For what it's worth, my preference was very clearly for the 282, in the system in which I was putting together. If anyone else finds otherwise, their decision is no more or less valid than mine. As long as the decision is based on a proper listening session or two.

I can't speak for Naim on this, but there are a few things to consider here:

• The NAC 272 main PCB contains a significant amount of surface-mounted components, with some 2nd-op through-hole components; the NAC 282 main PCB is exclusively through-hole components (said to sound better), and are IIRC built in-house. (The front panels of both are largely a surface-mount design.) Labor / assembly costs, perhaps?
• Newer products tend to be costed based on current (or forecasted) supply efficiencies, whereas the prices of older, long-running products may be incrementally increased over time, representing an attempt to accommodate unforeseen changes in component or assembly costs over the product's lifecycle (or cynically, to maintain product positioning, though one hopes that this is not the sole driver).

As regards sound quality - I'd reckon quite easily that a multi-stage switched attenuator, bi-polar power supply (XPS / 555 PS family, not *Cap) and extremely short(-er, relative to a separate streamer + interconnects) audio signal path make a big enough difference that the OP's question is not naïve, but rather rhetorical - why should a NAC 282 (plus external power supply) cost more?

Frankly, I've always believed that, with Naim's products, newer is always better, as the company itself accumulates many more years of design expertise to solve problems that, frankly, might have blocked the successful implementation of features and facilities that customers might want, that the market might require, or that changes in component sourcing thrust upon a (not-so-small anymore) specialist manufacturer might demand.

Simply different products fulfilling different purposes.   Having heard 272/XPS2/250DR in direct comparison with NDX/XPS2/282/HC/250DR  both into Focal Sopras in my opinion the latter had a considerably greater sound stage, better/tighter bass with greater definition, far more resolution, smoother treble and clearer vocals.  And so it should given the price differential.

Regards,

Lindsay

Innocent Bystander posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I really don't understand this apparent need to obsessively rank everything, whether it be the 202 and the 282, the 282 and the 252 and now the 272, 282 and 202. Does it matter? You pays your money and you takes your choice. Perhaps people could listen for themselves and decide - that would be novel. 

Except that, for at least some people, especially outside Britain though it also applies to some places here, auditioning at all can be very difficult or even impossible, let alone having the chance to do comparative auditioning. And for those lucky enough to have an accessible dealer with appropriate units and facilities, many people prefer to go in with clear ideas of what they want to hear, especially if they've had experience of dealers trying to 'lead' them to something more profitable for the dealer.

I've no idea if any of these considerations apply to the OP, who clearly is confused over which is, or is supposed to be, the superior piece of kit in terms of sound quality, given varied comments on these forums. That very variation, of course, may suggest that there is little difference in terms of sound quality, or that the difference is more a matter of personal preference of the different nuances each may bring to the sound.

@ Innocent Bystander, you are correct, I haven't had the hands on experience that you gentleman have had. I never heard a 552, 252, or 272.  Listening to a Statement at a Seminar is not like listening to a System over your friends house twice a month.  It's not like I can walk into an Authorized Naim Dealer and A-B  and 282 vs  272, they don't even have them, I had to Drive to Canada, just to see if my gear was working properly, purchasing my gear 2nd hand. 

But all is well, entertaining last night, and the Briks performed admirably! But, this is what I love about the Forum, gentleman like yourself, have had hands on experience, and can share that info. with others, that don't have the same luxury that you guys have in the UK! 

@ HH, you are well respected, especially by the Armchair QB, myself, a tag which I no longer use. I felt it was pissing individual off, so I retired it, and make sure that we I use the  Forum, if I'm making a statement that I can  validate with my own ears, usually Linn Gear, LP 12,s Genki, Lk 280s vs 250s etc......

Now the OP, has asked a simple question, which many already no the answer, due to gentleman like yourself, who have posted their experiences as it pertains to the components in question Example:

HUNGRY HALIBUT MEMBER

5/14/16 7:58 AM
The 272 preamp is better than the 202. 

HUNGRY HALIBUT MEMBER
7/23/16 1:39 PM
Where is this nonsense coming from? 202 head and shoulders above the 272? Really?
Like Reply (0 Likes)

HUNGRY HALIBUT MEMBER
7/23/16 3:27 AM
I still wonder if the introduction of the 372 will mean that the 202, 282 and 252 can be retired. With the streaming preamps I don't see the need for standalone preamps. With the introduction of the 272, I bet 202 and 282 sales have fallen through the floor. The 272 may not be quite as good as the 282, but it's close enough not the matter. If Naim went this route, the napsc, Hicap and Supercap could also be retired. 

But let's not forget, In the end its about the Music!

BTW, the 272 is the 4 Box Wonder!  272/Xps/250DR/Fraim! 

Love Allante93!