Super lumina versus NACA5

GraemeH posted:

ken c posted:

can someone younger than me explain what poor timing is, ...please. would it be possible to explain it in terms of a how poor timing would manifest on a reasonably well known recording? depending on definition, is it possible that the cable would work in all other respects except timing? is timing the opposite of "congestion"?

just so you know, i have SL IC for NDS and SL snaxo and my system sounds absolutely fantastic -- in fact it seems to continue to get better each time i play it. 

enjoy...

ken

Where the pace and rhythm are out of sync. Instrumental clarity and separation that fails to gel into a musical whole...Is my best effort.

I heard it very noticeably with S600's a few years back where some well known albums sounded like they had been dismantled and reassembled wrongly.

G

if this is what people are hearing with SL speaker cables, then there is something obviously seriously wrong with either the cable itself or something else.  

but as expected i guess, this 'poor timing' of SL speaker wire is not universal -- there are folks here who i would assume are very sensitive to this kind of this who are happy with their SL speaker wires. but hey, what's new???

for now, i cannot afford these cables so it wouldn't be fair to any dealer for me to try them out myself... knowing full well that i will not be able to buy them if i liked them. and its a very big deal for me to swap speaker cables in my active system, so i would have  to contemplate buying them to bother trying them out.

enjoy...

ken

I think it probably only takes a nanosecond's difference to throw one's perception of the deeply familiar...perhaps not so noticeable with new (to you) unfamiliar material?

G

ken c posted:

can someone younger than me explain what poor timing is, ...please. would it be possible to explain it in terms of a how poor timing would manifest on a reasonably well known recording? depending on definition, is it possible that the cable would work in all other respects except timing? is timing the opposite of "congestion"?

just so you know, i have SL IC for NDS and SL snaxo and my system sounds absolutely fantastic -- in fact it seems to continue to get better each time i play it. 

enjoy...

ken

Well Ken, I doubt, that I'm younger than you, but you have followed the above protocol.

Furthermore, you've been tuned in with the fortunate few, who have experimented with the Full Loom.

Hence, your issues were only short term, due to adjustment periods.

Being an Active fan, I always tune in to you guys, even though I don't belong to the 500 Club.

There's always valuable information, that can be obtained from the sidelines!

Allante93!

You can add SL cables to the long and distinguished list of hi-fi kit that folks have initially raved about, then others have realised didn't do it for them. Cue    the inevitable discussions on why, how, why not. Resentment from some, puzzlement from others. It's just the way of things in the barmy hi-Fi world.

tonym posted:

You can add SL cables to the long and distinguished list of hi-fi kit that folks have initially raved about, then others have realised didn't do it for them. Cue    the inevitable discussions on why, how, why not. Resentment from some, puzzlement from others. It's just the way of things in the barmy hi-Fi world.

That's about the size of it. I read all the superlatives thrown at them, borrowed a set, and thought, err no...

Consciousmess posted:

What is the improvement of this? Similar to DR upgrades?  

Thank You Consciousmess! 

You given an old geezer, like myself, an opportunity to share some ideas and thoughts. Now my conscience is a mess, do we spend the Cash on the Full Loom, or do we sit on the Nac A 5?

Once Again, Mission accomplished!

Allante93! 

tonym posted:

You can add SL cables to the long and distinguished list of hi-fi kit that folks have initially raved about, then others have realised didn't do it for them. Cue    the inevitable discussions on why, how, why not. Resentment from some, puzzlement from others. It's just the way of things in the barmy hi-Fi world.

fascinating Tony...

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

tonym posted:

You can add SL cables to the long and distinguished list of hi-fi kit that folks have initially raved about, then others have realised didn't do it for them. Cue    the inevitable discussions on why, how, why not. Resentment from some, puzzlement from others. It's just the way of things in the barmy hi-Fi world.

fascinating Tony...

enjoy

ken

Kinda like the Chord Music IC, last fall, when it debuted:

Price quoted was £3,800 for rca/rca

STEVE JMEMBER

11/22/1511:53 AM

""It would have been useful to compare the Music with the Super Lumina cables but I guess that's difficult with Chord hosting the event. I'd like to think the prices of the Music are too steep for me to consider, but I felt a little that way with the Super Lumina."

Like you say Tonym, it's just the way of things, in this barmy hi-fi world.

 Or is the Chord Music, another story?

Allante93!

dave marshall posted:

As a postscript to my post above, which mentions both my "ever obliging dealer", and "financial constraints", I've just had a call from him, letting me know that he can offer me a demo Nap 500 DR at a decent figure, which will involve trading in my 300 DR.

Mustn't read this forum then. 

OK. Now yer talkin'. Very serious fun indeed coming your way.

'It doesn't time' translates for me as 'It doesn't do old in-yer-face hair-shirt Naim'.

Some people still love the old Naim sound (I did), and with a vinyl source and the rest of the kit copacetic and synergistic, it can still have some great qualities. But 'New Naim' and modern digital recordings in particular require something different. I hear NAC A5 sounding potentially raw, uncouth, congested and edgy with 'New Naim' equipment and modern digital mastering. Rightly or wrongly; Super Lumina smooths out the rough edges, whilst managing to open the window in a musically engaging manner.

Naim have felt the need to move with the times and are endeavouring to produce a sound signature with wider appeal to suit their new equipment and new music. Super Lumina adds layers of sophistication, smoothness, transparency and detail for me, and the music still makes me tap my foot - thought it might just not be smacking me about the head.

The choice is out there folks. Just listen.

John.

Harry posted:

dave marshall posted:

As a postscript to my post above, which mentions both my "ever obliging dealer", and "financial constraints", I've just had a call from him, letting me know that he can offer me a demo Nap 500 DR at a decent figure, which will involve trading in my 300 DR.

Mustn't read this forum then. 

OK. Now yer talkin'. Very serious fun indeed coming your way.

Err..........tempting, and he's very persuasive, but no, a step too far, I'm afraid. 

J.N. posted:

'It doesn't time' translates for me as 'It doesn't do old in-yer-face hair-shirt Naim'.

Some people still love the old Naim sound (I did), and with a vinyl source and the rest of the kit copacetic and synergistic, it can still have some great qualities. But 'New Naim' and modern digital recordings in particular require something different. I hear NAC A5 sounding potentially raw, uncouth, congested and edgy with 'New Naim' equipment and modern digital mastering. Rightly or wrongly; Super Lumina smooths out the rough edges, whilst managing to open the window in a musically engaging manner.

Naim have felt the need to move with the times and are endeavouring to produce a sound signature with wider appeal to suit their new equipment and new music. Super Lumina adds layers of sophistication, smoothness, transparency and detail for me, and the music still makes me tap my foot - thought it might just not be smacking me about the head.

The choice is out there folks. Just listen.

John.

 

I couldn't have put it better, John. 

tonym posted:

Harry posted:

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

Very interesting a few months back SL was the big thing the full system should be Sl for a substantial sum of money, now suddenly the cable does not time, in Naimland this is a very serious problem. Of course I suppose people in the do not time camp are not the same full SL people.

Claus

It times just fine. In my room and system. Other people's results will vary depending on room and system. And other factors as discussed.

The "got accustomed to the sound" hypothesis doesn't really work for SL. It's so raw and screechy whilst managing   to  sound shut  in that you can't get used  to  it. And if you somehow managed got accustomed to the unnatural presentation you wouldn't pay to have your system thrown out of tune to that  extent.

As ever, use your ears and trust what YOU hear.  Those unfortunate enough not to be able to audition might consider themselves to be in a more tricky situation, but they're not really. At that price just don't go there blind. It's not like NACA5 (or the alternatives) sound awful.

Quite right Harry, it's down to room, system, and your own preferences. It's this running-in business I've an issue with. Can't speak for Jon but certainly the SL interconnect I tried was not shut in or screechy. It had been extensively run in before I tried it. It just didn't time, sounding boring, and I really struggle to imagine how, after three months, it will suddenly gain this characteristic. I'm prepared to try again at some stage, with a more mature cable, but my Super Sarum sounds so much better that I don't feel a great need to repeat the exercise.

I think everyone's susceptible to getting used to a particular sound. For myself, I've bought a particular cable that, initially, I wasn't entirely happy with, but after a while I felt it had "run in" and sounded much better. So I bought an exact duplicate. Which sounded, out of the box,  the same as the so-called run-in one. Perhaps it's just me.

A very interesting post and entirely feasible  I personally would find it very hard put up with cables I had spent thousands of pounds on taking weeks and months to start sounding excellent, good or even fantastic I am far to impatient and plus my good wife would think I had finally lost it.  I paid 150 pounds for a used 5m pair of Naca 5 and they sounded better instantly.

I find the SL times rather well, plus adds a number of other beneficial attributes - detail, air etc. I've had my full loom for around 9 months, so it's well run in by now. One additional point to note is that about 3 months into the SL run I replaced my Ovator S600s with Focal Scala Utopias, which are a bit brighter than the Ovators. I wonder whether the SL cables work better with Focals compared to earlier Naim speakers?

I have always thought Naim are a 'system synergy' company, and perhaps the SLs are a bridging component between traditional Naim, and the new relationship with Focal?

I'm currently listening to Antonio Forcioni - Touch Wood in HD and it sounds bloody excellent, so whatever's happened there are no complaints here...

Dave.

J.N. posted:

'It doesn't time' translates for me as 'It doesn't do old in-yer-face hair-shirt Naim'.

Some people still love the old Naim sound (I did), and with a vinyl source and the rest of the kit copacetic and synergistic, it can still have some great qualities. But 'New Naim' and modern digital recordings in particular require something different. I hear NAC A5 sounding potentially raw, uncouth, congested and edgy with 'New Naim' equipment and modern digital mastering. Rightly or wrongly; Super Lumina smooths out the rough edges, whilst managing to open the window in a musically engaging manner.

Naim have felt the need to move with the times and are endeavouring to produce a sound signature with wider appeal to suit their new equipment and new music. Super Lumina adds layers of sophistication, smoothness, transparency and detail for me, and the music still makes me tap my foot - thought it might just not be smacking me about the head.

The choice is out there folks. Just listen.

John.

 

Naim certainly moved with the times alright they are way off into the distant future when it comes to pricing Naim Naca 5 is 30 quid a metre of the roll and SL is 300 and we are discussing which is better!!!!  Anyway I thought Tellurium Q Black was the new go to speaker cable or was it Ultra Black no I'm sure it was Ultra Silver. I can honestly say since house renovations have used up all my spare cash and upgrades are a thing of the past for a while,   my system has sounded much much better than it ever did when I had spare cash lying around!

Bob the Builder posted:

   my system has sounded much much better than it ever did when I had spare cash lying around!

Nail, head, hit. 

J.N. posted:

'It doesn't time' translates for me as 'It doesn't do old in-yer-face hair-shirt Naim'.....................

John.

 

Wow, it doesn't get better than this!  

First off, I belong to the 282 Club, Naim says it's SL technologies are equally at home with the 500, and Classic Series, However, The Full Loom, does not compute dollar wise with a meager 282/250 system, better off joining the 500 Club. 

J.N has simply nailed it, pretty much the way I presented, even though not a hands on type of guy! 

Posted by Allante93:

""Naim’s Evolving Sound!

Naim is doing what any reputable company would do, Change.

It’s a very competitive market, if Naim stayed with that upfront, boogie factor, that was so prominent in the CB & Olive era, we may very well be partaking in another Forum!

Take a look at what has transpired over the last three decades: 

CB>Olive>Black Boxes, and now The Dred Black Boxes, these changes has set the stage for the New Evolving Naim Sound.

Hence, a Dred front and rear end, with The Full Loom, and one has the New Naim Sound, quite different from the CB & Olive era!

Think of it as an Hybrid between Flat Earth & Round Earth!

However, one must get there, and in the process, may turn some of us off, for example when the black boxes were introduced, some didn’t care for the laid back sound, they preferred the more forward, boogie factor that was prominent in the Olive boxes.

Perhaps, we are experiencing a balancing act, between the Black Box Era, and the new DRed Era!

Note, the New Naim Sound isn’t complete until the Full Loom is present. Hence, the introduction, or lack of IC’s, and Speaker Cable can effect SQ in many ways depending on one’s system.

But even in an Utopian Scenario, a DRed front and rear end, accompanied by the Full Loom, still ain’t a Statement! "

Now, if I recall, me and J.N. seemed to see eye to eye on this one, but I must confess, I do like his presentation better, a bit more persuasive! 

Allante93! 

When I put a loose loop in the din/canon cable from SC to 250 to get it off the carpet the system started sounding analytical and a bit boring, I interpret this to be poorer timing and I got the same effect from a SL interconnect looped or on the carpet or even on an air pillow, at which point I gave up on SL. I fully get its other benefits but...

Subsequent 552/500 has precluded revisiting SL for the foreseeable, Life's a bitch sometimes.

Allante93 posted:

Sooo, could the timing be System dependant, as it relates to the SL Speaker Cable?

On the front end, S1,552,252, no problem.

However, introduce older Olive technology, perhaps the timing could be affected.

JON HONEYBALL'S, dilemma.

On the tail end, is it possible, reaction time could differ, between the iconic DBLS, and more modern Speaker designs, say the Ovator 800s.

Hence, if one is running an S1, with Active Ovators, the SL Speaker Cable is in balance, as opposed to DBLs.

 Gentleman, what's your take, on my Theory?

Allante93!

 

Not my dilemma at all. This was nothing to do with my active DBL system. As I said, this was with S1, 300DR, 500DR. Nothing olive. Nothing DBL. 

Alba1320 posted:

FWIW, reviewer Martin Colloms seems to prefer NAC A5 to SL, having used them with various modern Naim amps (up to and including Statement), NDS, and non-Naim speakers.

Me? I've not heard any, so I'm blissfully unaware of how brilliant/rubbish* it is.

* (delete as appropriate )

And I spent all day last saturday listening to various items in his system. 

500DR + new Magicos are even more sublime than the S1 pre/power + previous version of Magicos

Jon,

Which Magico model- S series?

The 500 had enough power?

ATB,

Mark

S5 Mk2 (which is a big leap up from the already outstanding S5). I've never  heard a speaker as capable as the S5 Mk2 in every single area. 

NDS plus 555ps (which we all know and love)

Townsend Allegri preamp (which is so transparent as to be quite scary)

Plus other bits and pieces.

I like SL interconnect. I dont like SL speaker cable. 

As for 3x500 for the dibbles... experience with the S1 pre shows the bottleneck in my system is not the 135s. Its the 52.

552, while better,  is not anything like as good a step up in VFM terms as needed. S1 pre shows how poor (relatively speaking) 552 is in VFM terms.

I am tempted by the Allegri, at least to try for a few weeks. But I would have to sort the cabling to get it connected to supercapDR/snaxo362

Alba1320 posted:

^ Thanks, Jon.

Wow! Praise, indeed, for the S5 mk2! Sounds like fun was had!

BTW, any thoughts on CD555 v NDS (CD replay, of course )?

Interesting about  SL interconnect and loudspeaker cable - I believe MC is of the same opinion?

Trying the Allegri sounds intriguing - would be good to hear your thoughts if/when it happens. BTW, have you heard the 552DR, or 'just' the original?

+1 to benefit of SL interconnect. I visited the local dealer who was breaking in dome new and expensive Totem bookshelf speakers on heavy pedestals. The was a new 272/XPSdr/250dr driving the new speakers via A5 cable. And you know what, it sounded boxy and dull. This is of course not fair to the system as nothing except presumably the A5 cable was broken in. It sounded positively boring compared to the 272/250dr/A5 cable/ovator 400 I run at home. I was feeling chuffed and smug until the assistant used SL Din-XLR interconnect, which caused a complete and utter transformation. Changes were improved timing and attack, more air around the instruments, and a huge smile. Verily it was chalk and cheese. It may be my next upgrade before the XPSDR on that performance.

Remember that the allegri has no active components at all. no powersupply. Its a very cleverly constructed autotransformer. It has the most "nothing there" sound of any pre-amp I've ever heard.

It is entirely the opposite end of the philosophical scale to the S1 pre, which is also astonishingly transparent. But I think the Allegri has the edge over the s1 pre. 

(it also benefits from being some 50 grand cheaper....) :-)