Calling NAC 282 / HCDR / NAP 200 Owners Who Have Upgraded To NAP 250 DR

How many different ways can you ask the same question ?

Disregarding the strengths or superiority of the NAP 250 DR, does anyone find it to be a darker, warmer and thicker sounding amp than the NAP 200?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

you could try a non DR 250.2 or 250

S

Please clarify the suggestion.

Sorry - i completely mis read your post - I'll delete mine

ryder. posted:

Has anyone here previously on the NAC 282 / HCDR / NAP 200 upgraded to the NAP 250 DR (brand new)? I would like to know the perceived changes you have experienced with the 250 DR when the unit is going through the burn-in process.

I am currently experiencing a slight change in sound with the NAP 250 DR and I believe it now sounds rather different from the NAP 200. I am unsure if the character of the 250 DR will continue to change in a couple of days or weeks from now but as far as things are concerned, I currently find the NAP 200 to be a better match for the Harbeth SHL5 loudspeakers than the NAP 250 DR.

I would appreciate some input from forum members who have upgraded from the NAP 200 to the NAP 250DR (new) on the NAC 282 / HCDR.

Guess its mismatch, your room, your speakers with this amp, if its just a little bit fat sounding alike its forerunner non DR, I'd guess those speakers will be better off a 200 or 300 poweramp (I would change speakers or poweramp) don't be in audiohell, just listen to some music for a couple of weeks.

Ryder haven't we been elsewhere with this?  

Anyway for the record.  I previously had a 282/HC/200 and swapped the latter for a non DR 250 but kept and eventually went back to the 200 for the very reason of the bloated bass and a presentation that I found less entertaining.  

Enter the 250 DR - you just simply have far greater soundstage, more resolution  but most dynamics.  

Regards,

Lindsay

ryder. posted:

Disregarding the strengths or superiority of the NAP 250 DR, does anyone find it to be a darker, warmer and thicker sounding amp than the NAP 200?

That's a good description of the 250.2, buy absolutely not the new DR. I'd suggest that you are overanalysing the situation and that you should just plug it in and enjoy the music. Comparisons can be odious. 

b_lund posted:

Guess its mismatch, your room, your speakers with this amp, if its just a little bit fat sounding alike its forerunner non DR, I'd guess those speakers will be better off a 200 or 300 poweramp (I would change speakers or poweramp) don't be in audiohell, just listen to some music for a couple of weeks.

Thanks for the post. If I do not have the NAP 200, I would likely consider the 282/HCDR/250DR to be a great setup. It may be just a mismatch, largely the speakers, partly the source and listening preference. Not so much with the room.

To clarify, most music sound great with the 250DR and 200. I still enjoy listening to music with the 250DR. It's just that the 200 sounds different from the 250DR, and I have no problems switching between both actually. Nevertheless, due to the fuller sound of the 250 DR, certain music or recordings sound dark and thick on the amp, and these music sound airier and more open on the 200.

The bass on the 250DR is surely at a higher level - punchier and more controlled than the 200. The bass of the 200 is lighter and leaner in comparison. I hope the 250DR will open up with time and doesn't sound as thick or fat as it is right now.

The Strat and Hungryhalibut, thanks. Yes, I may be over-analysing things. Will decide in due time which will be permanently matched with the 282/HCDR.

Since there is a recent report of a great matchup between the 202 and 250 DR, there is a possibility that I may end up with the 282/HCDR/200 and 202/non-Naim PSU/250DR.

Ryder, both myself and Darke Bear have explained that it will take a minimum of 3 months to 9 months for the 250 DR to fully run in.

For the record I had 282/HCDR/200 and now have 282/HCDR/250DR.

The 250 DR has the latest 009 transistors from the statement amplifier and also the latest DR regulators, which has a noise floor 10 times lower than all previous 250 amps. The 009 transistor is made from non-ferrous materials which has a lot less vibration going through the transistor legs when the speaker demands high currents. 

I heard the difference right away from the Nap 200. Yes the highs were recessed and that went away with time.

There is no way that a NAP 200 sounds as good as a 250 DR.

the 200 has a "shouty presentation" and treble edge grain that simply isn't there in the 250 DR.

The old 200 has been also been perceived as "dry as a desert" by Catalinmetal, please look for his posts. This was explained by him as a lack of resolution.

I once tried a 200, 250 and 500 on a 552, and that is when I knew I had to get a 250 or 300 someday, the 200 just doesn't have the "live music" sound of the regulated amplifiers. 

Maybe you got used to the exciting presentation of the 200, but the 250 DR is more musical, I can listen to it all day long without any fatigue at all. I can't find any single fault with the 250 DR, it seems perfect to my ears.

I can sense you are feeling lot of anxiety, but the 250 DR will run in in a few months.

Suggest you read the review of the 250 DR on "the ear" website and also the review of the 300 DR which explains the nature of changes in the new DR amplifiers.

Naim would never charge more for 250 DR if it were not a lot better than 200. And it is a lot better !

Analogmusic, I certainly appreciate your post. Firstly, I would like to apologise to all 250DR owners who are enjoying the amp. I have no qualms that it is an excellent sounding amp. I am certainly jumping the gun right now with my lack of patience and desire to seek quick answers from those who have gone through this phase with the 250DR with my repeated posts. I need to learn to be more patient even though the end result may not work to my favour.

I appreciate the key remark "the recessed highs went away with time". Yes, the treble particularly the sound of the piano with the 250DR is beginning to sound recessed. It didn't sound that way few days ago. It appears that with more burn-in, the overall sound from top to bottom has become thicker.

FWIW the NAP 200 does not sound dry or shouty in my system. It sounds smooth as silk and the highs are airy, owing largely to the Harbeth SHL5s which are inherently warm and smooth sounding speakers.

I am not losing hope on the 250 DR yet. I do appreciate your post Analog. Thanks.

I think you do need to relax and keep in mind some senior forum members have advised you to have patience, and while you are free to post further on this topic, it will not be well appreciated to ask repeated questions . You have already received some aggressive comments, so it is up to you now.

about the 200, for a long time I didn't understand why some call it shouty or dry, but both me and a friend when we heard the 250 DR, then 200, it become very obvious that by comparison it is dry, and now it sounds quite shouty to me. Some people love that exciting presentation, but if I had to choose between 250DR and 200, it would  be 250 DR for sure.

My 15 year daughter got it instantly - the vocals are more annoying to listen to on 200 compared to 250.2 (that is the old 250, not the DR version). Which they were, the midrange seemed lacking in the 200.

Also the 250 has more texture and as one forum member said, the 250 has the right amount of "color saturation' whereas the 200 is like watching TV with the color setting down quite a bit.

there is a reason why Naim hi-end amplifiers like 250 DR,300 DR and 500 DR are regulated, they are simply more musical and more refined, while being a lot more powerful.

Yes, I am getting some of the benefits of the 250DR as described. The higher levels of musicality, refinement and realism with the regulated amp which in turn produces a more sophisticated and "matured" sound. As there is more body with the 250DR, there is more texture and layering, and these traits can be seen as added detail, separation or 3-D soundstaging, whatever that means.

Hey analog. Our minds are rather alike. "Texture" is the right word to describe the 250 DR when it is compared to the 200.

Hungryhalibut:

That's a good description of the 250.2, buy absolutely not the new DR. I'd suggest that you are overanalysing the situation and that you should just plug it in and enjoy the music. Comparisons can be odious. 

That's what I Love about the Forum, my vocabulary is increasing by leaps and bounds!

1. Odious:

    

   extremely unpleasant; repulsive.

   synonyms:

   revolting, repulsive, repellent,repugnant, disgusting, offensive,objectionable, vile, foul,abhorrent, loathsome,nauseating, sickening, hateful,detestable, execrable,abominable, monstrous,appalling, reprehensible,deplorable, insufferable,intolerable, despicable,contemptible, unspeakable,atrocious, awful, terrible,dreadful, frightful, obnoxious,unsavory, unpalatable,unpleasant, disagreeable, nasty,noisome, distasteful;  That Bad HH, LOL....... Allante93!

^^^

Having said that, there may be instances where the non-regulated amps could be preferred to the regulated ones. ISTR that regulation does somewhat limit current swings and that the 160s (bolt together or chrome bumper only) sometimes outdid the equivalent 250. They certainly generated less heat. Certainly with Quad ELS, the amp of choice was the 160-although the ELS are driven by voltage not current. 

Also, when the original XPS came out...it too was alleged to have 1/10th the noise of the CDSPS. But for some reason, I preferred the CDSPS, with the XPS only bettering it in the XPS-2 guise. 

Naim has long eschewed specifications as a replacement for audition. Low noise is not always better...which is why their power amps have a low level hisssssssssssss. The cost of eliminating it was simply too great. 

I'll refrain from asking questions on the burn-in of the 250DR at this point. 3 to 9 months for the 250DR to fully run-in. 9 months seem to be awfully long but I'll be patient. I hope I'll get some positive results going into the 3rd month.

Sorry but 6 to 9 months of "burn in" just means you are getting used to the sound rather than a real change.

A trusted dealer have once said to me that a NAP200 may sound better in some set up than a NAP250 (DR or otherwise). Please do not kid yourself that a more expensive amp is surely better in all setups.

ryder. posted:

Disregarding the strengths or superiority of the NAP 250 DR, does anyone find it to be a darker, warmer and thicker sounding amp than the NAP 200?

Yes on almost all counts, but not darker.

engjoo posted:

Sorry but 6 to 9 months of "burn in" just means you are getting used to the sound rather than a real change.

A trusted dealer have once said to me that a NAP200 may sound better in some set up than a NAP250 (DR or otherwise). Please do not kid yourself that a more expensive amp is surely better in all setups.

Finally wise words

don't believe in all this marketing crap or 90 months burning - how silly can it be ! - they just need to justify their purchase and can't stand if other have other experience, they even copy/paste the BS !

I remember a guy waiting for his SN to burn in, I hope after 634 weeks its about to happen

FWIW why two setup in this 202/200/282/250 range ? I'd better go up in one setup and just" have some entrylevel gear in the other, you could get a 52/135 and Unity or something,. - the olive stuff will walk over the black boxes, good night

b_lund posted:

Finally wise words

don't believe in all this marketing crap or 90 months burning - how silly can it be ! - they just need to justify their purchase and can't stand if other have other experience, they even copy/paste the BS !

I remember a guy waiting for his SN to burn in, I hope after 634 weeks its about to happen

 

FWIW why two setup in this 202/200/282/250 range ? I'd better go up in one setup and just" have some entrylevel gear in the other, you could get a 52/135 and Unity or something,. - the olive stuff will walk over the black boxes, good night

Very Spirited Chap, and there is some validity, but Remember, it is about sales! 

But In the end, this is the same company that produced the 52, same company that created the 135s, And this is the Naim Forum, so what do you expect! 

I couldn't wait to take advantage of the 250.2 price drop, New DR Amps hit the Market 2015, I picked up a open Box, Brand New 250.2 with 5 year full warranty for 4K, USA, do the Math. 

And guess what anybody that was running a 500 Series non-DR with Nac A5, way back in 2012, all of a sudden, their rig is Odious !

I hear you, B_LUND! 

Allante93!

There have been some pretty good descriptions of the 250DR vs 200 sound above in this thread.  As for the darker/warmer sounding vs the 200, I'm not sure that's how I would refer to it.  With the 200 (& with the 150X before it), when listening to digital, I always thought there was this slight digital harshness to the highs that I always assumed was from my DAC (Teddy DAC).  I had changed my source & my pre's etc but it was still there.  It wasn't till I got the 250DR, that even with digital, all traces of this harshness has completely disappeared.  So in comparison I don't think the highs are darker sounding, their just much more refined.

My 250DR had some use but from the first listen I knew it was a keeper.  Yes the 200 would have the leaner presentation, so it would be a must to re-position the speakers with each amp for proper sound.  Maybe if your room is already bass heavy, the 200 is a better match but to me, all the other area's the the 250DR does so much better then the 200 would be very hard to give up (I'd probably think about swapping speakers, instead of "downgrading").

Allante93 posted:

Hungryhalibut:

That's a good description of the 250.2, buy absolutely not the new DR. I'd suggest that you are overanalysing the situation and that you should just plug it in and enjoy the music. Comparisons can be odious. 

That's what I Love about the Forum, my vocabulary is increasing by leaps and bounds!

1. Odious:

    

   extremely unpleasant; repulsive.

   synonyms:

   revolting, repulsive, repellent,repugnant, disgusting, offensive,objectionable, vile, foul,abhorrent, loathsome,nauseating, sickening, hateful,detestable, execrable,abominable, monstrous,appalling, reprehensible,deplorable, insufferable,intolerable, despicable,contemptible, unspeakable,atrocious, awful, terrible,dreadful, frightful, obnoxious,unsavory, unpalatable,unpleasant, disagreeable, nasty,noisome, distasteful;  That Bad HH, LOL....... Allante93!

I know what odious means, without the need for a dictionary definition. The phrase 'comparisons are odious' was first used (or recorded as being used) in the 15th century, and has been used by various writers, including Shakespeare (an English playwright, to save the need to look him up) over the years. 

Anyway, to the 250. The 250.2 was something of a bloater but the new version is absolutely not. It has massive drive and punch where needed, yet is also capable of an incredible delicacy of touch. As for being dark and warm, I don't recognise those traits, even if they made sense as descriptors. 

About time someone said what a load of tosh a 9 month burn in period is!  Lets be honest here, if it sounds that bad, move on, it will not change its fundamental character no matter how long you wait.