Advice on best way to retrofit wired Ethernet.

I am never moving from an apartment to a house!!!

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

I am never moving from an apartment to a house!!!

Okay. But since you mentioned that on this thread, I have to ask why specifically? Surely doing all this stuff in a house is much simpler. You don't need to argue with the resident's committee about the noisy work you are having done or apply for permission to bolt things to the structural girders of the building  in a house. Plus you have other rooms to escape to while work is being done. You have no where to run in an apartment and even if you own the place, silly paperwork to get workmen in or pull up floorboards. Its all or nothing when working on a modern apartment.

Ardbeg10y posted:

 

Since there is only 1 cable in my house connecting the 2 most important rooms (second living having tv + audio / home office), I'm forced to use switches in these rooms. Managed though.

I would recommend against managed switches unless you really know what you're doing...

There really is a mis understanding about managed switches, they provide network management info for diagnostics or debugging if something goes wrong. Even if you are not able to deal with it you can get some who can..having a home network that has developed a fault and being completely blind about how to fix is simply madness...  Clearly a little switch hanging off a broadband router is something else.. If it goes wrong you can throw it away and start again... It's a bit different when it's part of your house infrastructure.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There really is a mis understanding about managed switches, they provide network management info for diagnostics or debugging if something goes wrong. Even if you are not able to deal with it you can get some who can..having a home network that has developed a fault and being completely blind about how to fix is simply madness...  Clearly a little switch hanging off a broadband router is something else.. If it goes wrong you can throw it away and start again... It's a bit different when it's part of your house infrastructure.

That's true Simon, but I think there is some kind of thinking that a managed switch is going to improve your network and this not true.  I guess what you are talking about / suggesting are things like Netgear's smart managed switches rather than so-called fully managed?

Bart posted:

Rather than 3 or 4 cables to each room, necessitating a huge switch with lines that may well never be used, why not plan on a small unmanaged switch in any room where multiple devices MAY be installed.

Yes that is how I am doing it currently. It works perfectly fine but I would say it is a solution to a problem (ie inadequate points or router ports) rather than one which I have designed for originally.

Eloise posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There really is a mis understanding about managed switches, they provide network management info for diagnostics or debugging if something goes wrong. Even if you are not able to deal with it you can get some who can..having a home network that has developed a fault and being completely blind about how to fix is simply madness...  Clearly a little switch hanging off a broadband router is something else.. If it goes wrong you can throw it away and start again... It's a bit different when it's part of your house infrastructure.

That's true Simon, but I think there is some kind of thinking that a managed switch is going to improve your network and this not true.  I guess what you are talking about / suggesting are things like Netgear's smart managed switches rather than so-called fully managed?

Yes and no. All things being equal a newly slotted managed switch should behave the same as an unmanaged switch. But here is the thing, most managed switches just happen to be, as well as managed, better quality switches than lower cost unmanaged ones. It is not always the case, but they do often have higher aggregate throughput and more buffer memory any number of other minor enhancements. If you are wiring up a modern home with many connected devices, I really would not want to do it any other way.

On the other hand, if you have DVR and and NDX and that is about it, sure, an unmanaged switch will almost certainly do fine.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

feeling_zen posted:   

 

 Anything that was in my control is done right and works perfectly. Anything not under my control was iffy.

The manager's dilemma and the art of delegation 

But a real and serious issue nonetheless.

In a professional work situation the solution is to have well-trained staff with a good work ethic and appropriate systems of work, however it is very different when engaging a contractor to undertake work for you, especially, but not only, in a matter about which you have little or no clear understanding. It is very difficult to determine which tradesman or firm will provide a truly honest, diligent and effective service. Personally I always do whatever I can myself, which has included all plumbing and electrical work in several houses, including full rewiring and complete plumbing, and many other things - primarily to save money, but also because I can ensure the most effective setup, and I know the quality of my work. But trades where I have less knowledge/ability or which is too large a scale in terms of time i.e. building construction, I have to entrust to contractors, and universally every one I have used has attempted to cut corners and/or done a less than perfect job, and other  than standing over them, which I simply don't have time to do, it seems either I have no ability to find a good builder or thhey  are so rare that it is simply pot luck as to whether one can be found, at least where I live. More recently electrical work has become more expensive because of the need to have tested and certified, not being a registered electrician, but that doesn't apply to computer networking, at least not where I am located - and it is simple enough for anyone to do, if they have the time and inclination, and do a little learning.

It can be really tough in an apartment. This place was new so the contractors are in and working from design specs I agreed and signed off on (though they don'T go into detail like whether cat6 cables go in dedicated trunking which for a domestic setting may not have ocurred to me anyway), but before the building has been given the green light by safety inspectors for people to come in that are not licensed tradies for the building. If I could see what they were doing I could have said "Oi! WTF are you doing? The dedicated rung and socket goes THERE you muppet!". But no. All the mistakes happened 3 months before I was even allowed to set food in the building.

Still, it is all relative and what I ended up with is probably better than what half of Naim users have to put up with. Circuits are dead quiet. No room shares a rung. Ethernet to every mains outlet terminating to a central location. It could have been sooo much worse.

Eloise posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There really is a mis understanding about managed switches, they provide network management info for diagnostics or debugging if something goes wrong. Even if you are not able to deal with it you can get some who can..having a home network that has developed a fault and being completely blind about how to fix is simply madness...  Clearly a little switch hanging off a broadband router is something else.. If it goes wrong you can throw it away and start again... It's a bit different when it's part of your house infrastructure.

That's true Simon, but I think there is some kind of thinking that a managed switch is going to improve your network and this not true.  I guess what you are talking about / suggesting are things like Netgear's smart managed switches rather than so-called fully managed?

Hi Eloise, yes a Netgear Prosafe Smart Switch would be suitable. They key thing here is diagnostics and these Prosafe switches (at least the ones I just looked at, ProSAFE FS526Tv2, FS726Tv2) offer port statistics via a web page and that is fine. But I understand not all'Smart' switches are the same, it's more a marketing term, so best check diagnostic capability first.

The only capability I noticed from the ProSAFE smart switches that might be missed in the home was the ability to support SNMP.. If you had a large house with voice, storage  and network infrastructure you might want to have a PC or Mac somewhere showing you a view of the status of all the infrastructure .. and typically SNMP is how you do this... but I suspect for most 'normal' houses this won't be an issue.

I like the ProSAFE switches.

I know a certain amount about networks, I'm capable of learning a lot more if needed; but unless absolutely necessary I just can't be bothered to learn enough to programme a managed switch to use it's capabilities properly.  In my opinion the best approach to home networking is KISS - at least until you encounter some specific reason to make it any more complicated.

Huge posted:

In my opinion the best approach to home networking is KISS - at least until you encounter some specific reason to make it any more complicated.

That was kind of the thinking behind my original statement.  I do agree with Simon though that the web page of stats and diagnosis on things like a Netgear ProSAFE (other brands of switches are available but not as many as there used to be) is useful.

Just checked, my TPLINK 8 port switches are apparently unmanaged, but have some diagnostic software.

Happy with them, they have metal cases which limits radiation (assumption).

Can't really add any more to what's already been said. It's all good advice.

I cabled my house throughout, running at least a double outlet to every room, and sometimes a pair of doubles to allow for room rearrangement. In reality lots of the wires go unused, but better safe than sorry.

Bring it all back to a central point so it's easy to manage, and can help with isolating noise.

This is what I ended up with:

Very happy with D-Link, TP-Link and QNAP components, all faultless.

Good luck!

Huge posted:

 In my opinion the best approach to home networking is KISS -

Thats what I say to my clients - KIS(S) also applies when you are trying to troubleshoot and correctly diagnose an issue. The frustration caused through the unnecessary complexity and time wasting  troubleshooting with non intelligent / silent devices is infuriating to the point of sometimes being futile on larger SME/home setups.

I use the example of you wouldn't  build a drain without an inspection cover - unless you wanted to dig up the whole drain if there was issue. But clearly a hose going from a washing machine to a drain is simple enough and can be replaced if visibly damaged. i.e. the case for Managed/Smart or Unmanaged/Silent switches

Its a fallacy to think good practice and status visibility equals complexity - its not - its precisely the opposite for the majority of home infrastructure applications. However it does tend to cost a little more up front.

S

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Huge posted:

 In my opinion the best approach to home networking is KISS -

Thats what I say to my clients - KIS(S) also applies when you are trying to troubleshoot and correctly diagnose an issue. The frustration caused through the unnecessary complexity and time wasting  troubleshooting with non intelligent / silent devices is infuriating to the point of sometimes being futile on larger SME/home setups.

I use the example of you wouldn't  build a drain without an inspection cover - unless you wanted to dig up the whole drain if there was issue. But clearly a hose going from a washing machine to a drain is simple enough and can be replaced if visibly damaged. i.e. the case for Managed/Smart or Unmanaged/Silent switches

Its a fallacy to think good practice and status visibility equals complexity - its not - its precisely the opposite for the majority of home infrastructure applications. However it does tend to cost a little more up front.

S

Simon, the software I'm working on would cost only 25% of it's price when KISS would be applied. In my experience, before KISS there is another important thing. Getting coherent requirements. If customers want too much (audio / software / cars / whatever), it is more likely to end up in an unnecessary complicated solution.

Absolutely - requirements first - and then design a solution around best practice for those requirements - unless there is clear reason not to. And of course a solution needs to allow you to repair it should the unexpected happen or you need to accept the possibility  of ripping out and starting again - and this includes cabling and fibres.

Curious about your software.. software can only really collate the status from the devices in terms of physical diagnostics - and many of the cheaper SmartSwitches don't use SNMP which otherwise would help software such as SolarWinds etc

S

intothevoid posted:

Can't really add any more to what's already been said. It's all good advice.

I cabled my house throughout, running at least a double outlet to every room, and sometimes a pair of doubles to allow for room rearrangement. In reality lots of the wires go unused, but better safe than sorry.

Bring it all back to a central point so it's easy to manage, and can help with isolating noise.

This is what I ended up with:

Very happy with D-Link, TP-Link and QNAP components, all faultless.

Good luck!

 

 

Mine is a somewhat simpler system, occupying less space, though of course possibly having less connected (typ 10-15 devices):

8 way unmanaged gigabyte switch sitting next to Fritzbox wireless router/VDSL modem (which has 4 ethernet ports), together with a small NAS (ZYxel NSA325) on a little high shelf on the landing, with mains outlets alongside and phone line routed there. From there 8 Cat 6 cables run to various rooms through eaves space and unshared wall conduit. Further unmanaged gigabyte switches are then used locally where more than one thing is to be connected. (Two 8-way, one 4-way, and another 4-way that is part of an additional wireless access point making use of a redundant Linksys ADSL wireless router/modem.) This keeps flexibility without running multiple cables to every room, other than the lounge that has two outlets in different places because of its size. The switches are all cheap unmanaged ones, all very compact.

Works perfectly, never any issues, other than ensuring no IP address clashes whan adding anything new. Used by two people seemingly constantly for either online gaming or video streaming, plus various other uses. When I played my music from a NAS I sited it in the music room connected to the same switch as the then ND5XS, and nothing else on that switch, and never any glitches. (I no longer need to play music across the network as it is all in the Mac Mini that doubles as renderer). Lack of problems includes video streaming from the NAS to the lounge via three switches and about 25m of cable. The house phone is VOIP also connected to one of the network outlets.

in general with domestic networks I agree with Huge's KISS recommendation, which is what I believe mine is.

Thanks for all the advice, I'm trying to assimilate it and hope I'm getting the gist of things.

what I've taken from the posts above is

• 2 sockets per room (at least)
• terminate with patch panel  (have labelling or mapping)
• Use trunking to futureproof
• Cat 6
• Basic managed switch
• Carefully consider location of switch

So just to check I'm understanding is this correctly labelled?

I don't understand what you mean here Simon

  and when wiring lay at least 2x Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable to where you anticipate switches. That way you can manage resilience or bonding like Ether channel for increased capacity

 Also what is the best type of socket to have in the individual rooms?

Thanks

SJB

Hi, I think your summary is pretty much spot on... The reference I made was referring to some locations using a hub and spoke with switches, so use a central switch and have a remote switch where there is a higher density of ports with devices taking to each other such as in an office/study. If you do this use may ideally anticipate using at least two cables to connect from the centralised switch to the edge switch. Depending on equipment used you can in build in resilience (two parallel cables using Spanning Tree ) or you can bond the cables/channels   together to give a higher capacity link... By using at least two cables you have options... and of course by using trunking it makes it easier to change as well... and you may start by simply using a single cable.

This is what I do... I have all my streaming audio and video equipment off its own switch, connected to a centralised switch. I find it's easier to manage and reduces the tendency of  'looms' of Ethernet cables starting to appear which I had severeal years ago when I had only one central switch. I use Cisco 2960 devices.. You can pick them up quite cheaply for quality managed devices on eBay.

SJB, yes your labels are correct. CAT6 patch panel at the top and a D-Link gigabit managed switch underneath. 

Richard has kindly re-opened this thread for me as we're getting close to what  Sir Alex once called  "squeaky bum" time in the renovation process so I have a few clarifications and further questions.

1. Ideally should all the CAT 6 cable be shielded?
2. Should it be CAT6 or CAT6a?
3. What would be the best way to include a run of  fibre connection to the main hi-fi rig?

Thanks,

John.

.sjb

Well here's what I've divined:

1. Shielded not necessary.

2.  CAT6 is fine for distances up to 30m

3. Can't get anything  definitive here. 

Is CAT 6 unshielded the correct choice?

.sjb

Cat 6 is ok with runs up to 100 meters. 

There is no formal classification of Cat 6E - it's a marketing gimmick, which is actually misleading.

Cat 7 offers shielding.

All ethernet cable categories are rated for 100m

Shielding can be applied to any & all cables,  the Cat number is not indicative of that e.g. Cat-6 (250MHz) can be UTP or STP,  same for Cat-6A (500MHz).