Support Shelf for NDX

Finkfan, if you have a CDX2, I have found it really comes into its own with a high quality stand. I use a full Fraim now with mine, and put on a non top shelf.. it makes a massive difference. Way back I used a wooden shelf with sorbothane pads for the CDX2, that was quite good but ultimately seemed to smother some of the detail and resolution , however I would recommend that until you go for Fraim. Also the CDX2 appears to really like Hiline, especially with higher specification Naim amplification.

Hi Simon. Thanks for that. Once my system has moved to my "office" I'll have to consider a decent rack. Until then my system is sat on mdf shelves on a Tv unit. A seperate rack in the lounge will not go down well with the domestic goddess. I do like the look of Adam Zs glass on vibrapods solution! 

Finkfan,  I don't want to go into detail on the rack, its my own design & has stuff that is very non-standard.  I have removed the top mounted TT & was hoping to install a glass shelf in its place for the NDX using either vibrapods (similar to Adams) or nuts/balls,; but per my post, its not really made much (if any) difference.  I'm now beginning to think that with a reasonably good rack to start with that solid state items like NDX are not so responsive to different supports as I've found with CDP's.

Re CDP vibration,  my old CDX2 was extremely good compared to my other CDP experiences,  I did improve it by fitting sorbothane 19mm half balls inside the hollow metal feet,  these fitted perfectly & gave the CDX2 about 0.5mm pad of soft feet & resulted in a small SQ gain,   & a CDX2 that did not slide around every time I touched it.  However,  I don't expect the SQ gain will be the same with different rack/shelf materials & designs, it might actually be an SQ loss,   but for the sake of a few £/$/€ its worth trying IMO.

I first found vibration with CDP's in a DJ set up,  horrible noises where fixed by putting a heavy weight on the player.  I suspected the laser was being affected by something resonating/vibrating & found the poor mounting of the traffo vibrated the whole player at 50/100Hz & re-engineering the traffo mount solved that,   plus bitumen panel damping solved the acoustic volume induced resonance.  I then found my home Marantz had similar problems & got a real SQ gain out of that & I've done the same for a few others since.

Huge posted:

Hi Mike,

I've tried:

Sorbathane feet
8.8mm laminated glass (450mm x 350mm x 8.8mm)
8mm toughened glass (450mm x 350mm x 8mm)
Glass resting on the wood
Glass + dome nuts
Glass + Sorbathane
Glass with 3 points of contact, glass with 4 points of contact

The best was 8mm toughened glass resting on 3 dome nuts.

It's night and day - literally: The ND5 sits on the glass 24x7, so literally night and day .

There was also significant gain in SQ over the bare Alphason rack, not an enormous gain, but quite significant and it is consistent.
There was a similar gain placing the Nait XS on an identical glass arrangement.

The gain in SQ wasn't as much as replacing the 'Lavender' with W2549, but it was more than replacing the "other interconnect".

Are the dome nuts filled with jam or custard?

Hi Stuart, they're filled with air.  You don't want then getting all heavy and stodgy do you.  Yuk, that wouldn't be nice!  

Mike-B posted:

Finkfan,  I don't want to go into detail on the rack, its my own design & has stuff that is very non-standard.  I have removed the top mounted TT & was hoping to install a glass shelf in its place for the NDX using either vibrapods (similar to Adams) or nuts/balls,; but per my post, its not really made much (if any) difference.  I'm now beginning to think that with a reasonably good rack to start with that solid state items like NDX are not so responsive to different supports as I've found with CDP's.

Re CDP vibration,  my old CDX2 was extremely good compared to my other CDP experiences,  I did improve it by fitting sorbothane 19mm half balls inside the hollow metal feet,  these fitted perfectly & gave the CDX2 about 0.5mm pad of soft feet & resulted in a small SQ gain,   & a CDX2 that did not slide around every time I touched it.  However,  I don't expect the SQ gain will be the same with different rack/shelf materials & designs, it might actually be an SQ loss,   but for the sake of a few £/$/€ its worth trying IMO.

I first found vibration with CDP's in a DJ set up,  horrible noises where fixed by putting a heavy weight on the player.  I suspected the laser was being affected by something resonating/vibrating & found the poor mounting of the traffo vibrated the whole player at 50/100Hz & re-engineering the traffo mount solved that,   plus bitumen panel damping solved the acoustic volume induced resonance.  I then found my home Marantz had similar problems & got a real SQ gain out of that & I've done the same for a few others since.

Interesting. I wonder why then the CDX2 is fitted with the hard rubber feet and not the softer ones on the other boxes? 

Finkfan, the cdx2, is somewhat sensitive , needs a little more TLC then other boxes, reminds me of SWMBO...

Huge posted:

Hi Stuart, they're filled with air.  You don't want then getting all heavy and stodgy do you.  Yuk, that wouldn't be nice!  

I find the air filled dome nuts impart a bland and sterile character. I much prefer mine filled with custard! �� 

Finkfan posted:

Interesting. I wonder why then the CDX2 is fitted with the hard rubber feet and not the softer ones on the other boxes? 

Almost 100% sure Naim designed it that way for the best SQ on the Fraim glass shelf.    Like I said in my post I don't expect the SQ gain will be the same with different rack/shelf materials & designs, it might actually be an SQ loss,  

@John W: off thread topic but I see an Yggdrassil DAC - presumably connected to your NDX used as transport. I did a test a few months ago with a friend's Yggi at my place (using the NDX as transport) and found it very similar to my NDX+XPS5 (as transport+DAC),  only with some aggressive vocals I thought the Yggdrasill had the upper hand vs the NDX but nothing close to the revelatory experiences quoted in the forum with other DACs like Hugo...what is your experience on this matter?

Mike-B posted:

................. I'm now beginning to think that with a reasonably good rack to start with that solid state items like NDX are not so responsive to different supports as I've found with CDP's.   This exercise in the last week clearly shows that streamer isolation is not the same (as it is with CDP's),  not even close. 

 I'm now satisfied the glass shelf does not do anything for NDX SQ,,  the experiments with various wood/MDF, glass, dome nuts & vibrapods don't change much so I'm reverting back to something like the old set-up,  minus the Rega TT.   The director of domestic affairs is happier that way as it looses the visible cables,  oh well such is life.

On the positive side, the system has had a complete strip out & deep clean, plus a cable tidy-up & routing change.  "We" now have a very pleasing (I'm told) smoked glass topped rack,    & I do believe it sounds even better than before  ........   

Mike-B posted:

Finkfan posted:

Interesting. I wonder why then the CDX2 is fitted with the hard rubber feet and not the softer ones on the other boxes? 

Almost 100% sure Naim designed it that way for the best SQ on the Fraim glass shelf.    Like I said in my post I don't expect the SQ gain will be the same with different rack/shelf materials & designs, it might actually be an SQ loss,  

Agree, albeit, not sure what came first Fraim or CDX2, however having used Sorbothane with my CDX2, which improved things and tamed a sharpness in the sound that came with lesser supports, the CDX2 is IME completely transformed on Fraim into a warm, bubbbly and infectiously rhythmic player...

DrPo posted:

@John W: off thread topic but I see an Yggdrassil DAC - presumably connected to your NDX used as transport. I did a test a few months ago with a friend's Yggi at my place (using the NDX as transport) and found it very similar to my NDX+XPS5 (as transport+DAC),  only with some aggressive vocals I thought the Yggdrasill had the upper hand vs the NDX but nothing close to the revelatory experiences quoted in the forum with other DACs like Hugo...what is your experience on this matter?

Dr.Po:  I spent a great deal of time auditioning DAC's before settling on the Yggy .. revelatory it isn't, but it is so right.

 Classical music sounds very natural, strings are wonderful .. the DAC portrays so much texture to the music regardless of its genre.  I hadn't experienced the aggressive vocals you note but having said that there was quite an extensive (4-6 weeks) run in period during which time the presentation altered quite considerably. I'd say it was a month before it settled down and really came on song.  I found the Hugo quite sterile in comparison.

Like NAIM, Schiit recommend leaving the Yggy turned on 24X7 .. 

Thanks John, the way you describe it is also very close to my experience. I just think the NDX is too expensive (used as transport only) in such a setup but if I was starting from scratch it would be a different story. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

Mike-B posted:

 

NDX also means ND anything or any streamer type unit,  its going to happen anyway (sometime) so I would like to make it to a design that works & avoid stuff that does/might degrade SQ.   My questions to the forum are for those that have experience of adding a support shelf (bought or DIY)   (a) Does a support under a streamer actually make a sonic difference (honesty please)  (b) whats the best shelf material;  glass, slate, plastic, wood  (c) ditto support types, spikes, inverted dome nuts, washer/balls, sorbothane, hard rubber,  fixed firmly to the shelf or not.  

............  

Yes - it does. I've asked my local supplier to make some glass shelves, in toughened black glass - size matches the Fraim glass shelves.
Each shelf sits on 3 VibraPods, providing the necessary isolation. Note: a VibraPod under the front-right corner is firmer (transformer sits here). VibraPods are relatively inexpensive (around EUR 45 for a pack of 4).

The differences are not subtle at all - it is probably the best and the most obvious upgrade I have ever heard.

I will add a photo in a second (if I can find it).

Adam

Wow, more than any of the electronic items?

Given that and a claim made on the current 'ethernet switch' thread, and some claims made about cables, maybe all we all need is the most basic of electronics, and focus only on the connections and supports!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Wow, more than any of the electronic items?      Given that and a claim made on the current 'ethernet switch' thread, and some claims made about cables, maybe all we all need is the most basic of electronics, and focus only on the connections and supports!

Hi IB,  I detect a little   in your post  ........  however for the benefit of all,  please read back to my last few posts & my conclusion on this thread  .............  sadly (for me anyway)  ..........  "I'm now beginning to think that with a reasonably good rack to start with that solid state items like NDX are not so responsive to different supports such as I've found with CDP's"     I'm not saying this is true for all,  but it is (was) for me

Innocent Bystander posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Mike-B posted:

 

NDX also means ND anything or any streamer type unit,  its going to happen anyway (sometime) so I would like to make it to a design that works & avoid stuff that does/might degrade SQ.   My questions to the forum are for those that have experience of adding a support shelf (bought or DIY)   (a) Does a support under a streamer actually make a sonic difference (honesty please)  (b) whats the best shelf material;  glass, slate, plastic, wood  (c) ditto support types, spikes, inverted dome nuts, washer/balls, sorbothane, hard rubber,  fixed firmly to the shelf or not.  

............  

Yes - it does. I've asked my local supplier to make some glass shelves, in toughened black glass - size matches the Fraim glass shelves.
Each shelf sits on 3 VibraPods, providing the necessary isolation. Note: a VibraPod under the front-right corner is firmer (transformer sits here). VibraPods are relatively inexpensive (around EUR 45 for a pack of 4).

The differences are not subtle at all - it is probably the best and the most obvious upgrade I have ever heard.

I will add a photo in a second (if I can find it).

Adam

Wow, more than any of the electronic items?

Given that and a claim made on the current 'ethernet switch' thread, and some claims made about cables, maybe all we all need is the most basic of electronics, and focus only on the connections and supports!

Is that a contribution to the thred or are you simply trying to be offensive?

The first part is a real question, though my assumption is that you probably mean in relation only to equipment supports, but you might mean more than that.

The second part, as Mike-B observed before your response, was clealy joking, or I thought it was clear. I cannot see any way in which it can be perceived as offensive, but I am sorry if it comes across in that way offensive to anyone, perhaps simply having a differenct sense of humour. 

When I put my Naim boxes on glass shelves with VibraPods (as opposed to sitting them on a wooden shelf) there was a change which I liked very much. It was the best upgrade I have heard in years.
However my LP12 sounded less happy sitting on one, so the glass shelf was removed.

This is the setup in my profile photo (library shot with Ovators).

Adam Zielinski posted:

When I put my Naim boxes on glass shelves with VibraPods (as opposed to sitting them on a wooden shelf) there was a change which I liked very much. It was the best upgrade I have heard in years.

If I might add some support for Adam on this,  the profile picture shows the Naim boxes on a large wall unit - shelves & draws - its not a designed for purpose audio rack such as Fraim et al, & I suspect the wall unit shelves that the Naim units are mounted on will resonate with the in-room sounds & other household noises.  I would fully expect some notable SQ improvements with the glass supports & suspect the Vibrapods play a significant part in this.      In comparison I would not expect Vibrapods have much if any effect with a (e.g.) Fraim. Likewise I have now discovered that to be the case with my rack, its nice to know that the design effort I put in to make it as inert as possible seems to work, disappointing that this experiment has not made further gains.   

Mike-B posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

When I put my Naim boxes on glass shelves with VibraPods (as opposed to sitting them on a wooden shelf) there was a change which I liked very much. It was the best upgrade I have heard in years.

If I might add some support for Adam on this,  the profile picture shows the Naim boxes on a large wall unit - shelves & draws - its not a designed for purpose audio rack such as Fraim et al, & I suspect the wall unit shelves that the Naim units are mounted on will resonate with the in-room sounds & other household noises.  I would fully expect some notable SQ improvements with the glass supports & suspect the Vibrapods play a significant part in this.      In comparison I would not expect Vibrapods have much if any effect with a (e.g.) Fraim. Likewise I have now discovered that to be the case with my rack, its nice to know that the design effort I put in to make it as inert as possible seems to work, disappointing that this experiment has not made further gains.   

Thanks Mike.

I tried an additional glass & vibrapod (out of curiosity) on my proper rack (the second picture in my profile). No real effect / improvement. Like in your case, the design and effort that went into building a good hi-fi rack, means it is already good enough, so to speak.

In case of my library, this was a trade off between the looks approved by the domestic CFO and functionality / sound quality I needed.

The ultimate test came when I actually moved my NDS / 252 / 250 system from the living room to my library. It was put on my self designed supports (toughened glass and vibrapods). It actually sounds even better now - most likely to do with the Ovators S-400. I obviosly compared the sound between the two rooms with the same electronics / speaker combo and prefer the set in my library. It's a smaller room and Ovators are much happier there.

So to conclude - there are no right or wrong setups. It really does depend on individual rooms and objectives.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Wow, more than any of the electronic items?

Given that and a claim made on the current 'ethernet switch' thread, and some claims made about cables, maybe all we all need is the most basic of electronics, and focus only on the connections and supports!

Is that a contribution to the thred or are you simply trying to be offensive?

Adam, I believe IB's reply to be facetious, but (I hope) not actually intended to be offensive.

It's a cultural thing - and your English is so good that I for one find it difficult to remember you're not a native English speaker (same applies to your Latin, well sort of! ).

Thank you Huge

The only bit of Latin I realy remember and undertand well is a motto of my Uni 'Rerum cognoscere causas'

Personally I do think theirs a lot to be said for personal recommendations, and purely based on Adams conclusions I have just bought a set of viropods for the cdx2, plus I don't have the naim fraim,  so I'm extremely confident of a good result.